Sweet Spot For the 21st Century With Calibers Beating .308- Part 4, by Alpine Evader

18 Comments

1. If I were going AR 10 (I’m not) I’d go 6 Creed or 247. Far less recoil and they will out perform .308 at 1000 yards. Less ammo weight too since projectiles weigh 105 to 115 grains.

2. going to stick with my M1A… stocked, slinged, scoped bipoded, Hornedayed sighted in at 200.. n focus on my pushups..

3. Best article I have seen
   thanks thanks thanks
   kinda like the article of 556 wolf tula steel brass cased dirty clean cost of barrels vs cost of ammo thanks again..

4. Best article I have seen

   kinda like the article of 556 wolf tula steel brass cased dirty clean cost of barrels vs cost of ammo thanks again..

5. Alpine Evader,
   Did you factor in the increased wear that you will have on your CAR-15’s barrels for using ferrous bi-metal jacketed ammo? I understand that your main strategy is to evade any OPFOR that wander your way, and lord willing not have to confront them, however it is a very high probability that you will be putting rounds downrange at some point if SHTF. Even practicing with it, and staying under the 12 round per minute sustained rate of fire for an CAR-15, would cause your barrels to get shot out much faster. I know that up front the Russian ammo may seem like a good idea, but when you factor in the extra barrels, more so than if you were using quality ammunition, I feel like the lower initial cost of that ammunition is a mute point.
   I enjoyed your article though as it was a good read and I always like hearing peoples reasoning and performance when choosing Oddball calibers to standardize with.

   God bless,

   Jim K.

6. Er….ah….I meant .243, not 247. It was very early and before coffee.

7. 1) What barrel twist did you choose for each of your rounds? I seem to recall 5.56 originally having trouble staying stabilized in air at below zero temps — although high altitude might reduce that.
   2) And did you look at how tight twists would reduce barrel life from greater wear and tear?

   3) Re the 5.56, any opinion on the army’s M855A1 round? Any word on whether it will be available to civilians?
   http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/03/20/army-and-marine-corps-still-disagree-over-m16-m4-bullet.html

8. Thank you all for finishing the four part series and for your well considered replies.

   Just to add a bit more on subzero temperature and why I use Mobil1 for AR-15 high altitude gun lube… I found this demonstration of -40 (F and C are the same at 40 below) and how well the oil holds up against a paraffin based competitor (probably Castrol). Mobil 1 cold weather demo resource: https://mobiloil.com/en/article/why-the-mobil-advantage/mobil-1-performance/mobil-1-protects-in-cold-weather

   Sheepdog109, thanks for the comments! I found the article you reference and I link it within here for others to examine.

   Brooksy: I getcha – we looked hard at .243 and have a friend who was a big time fan of that caliber. I think that the 6.5CM is slightly better due to some factors of the shape of the cartridge more than the actual projectile, but .243 is definitely something to consider in an AR-10 if you’ve already got a family who starts their gun culture kids off with a .243 for a deer rifle, more common before the AR/MSR shift of the 21st century. A lot of my friends started out with the .243 and then went either .270 or 30-06 depending on what their dad owned.

   Jim K, Don Williams, I think you have excellent questions and I hope that this reply writeup helps. Thanks again for the great detail in questions and for following the series.

   Don Williams: “… I seem to recall 5.56 originally having trouble staying stabilized in air at below zero temps — although high altitude might reduce that.

   – Most of our testing shifted away from .300 BLK and into 6.8 SPC. The 5.56mm is a 20th century design and we also think that there are many issues with it. What we’ve seen is that it may not be the best tool for the job at lower weights due to the shape of the bullet more than the caliber itself. 77 grain being one of the more optimum shapes, the Tula 75 grain design is pretty close to the 5.45×39 Russian / Soviet bloc bullet, which has a very aerodynamic shape.

   When I ran the bullets we were looking at through the Hornady computer, we saw considerable increases in supersonic velocities above 7000 feet at 32 degrees F. The 5.56 likes to be supersonic and I believe it destabilizes either due to barrel issues like I discuss in more detail when I answer the other parts of your question. I hate to say this, but without doing a full on environmental test at altitude in cold weather with the specific bullet in question I cannot say for certain. What I can say is that through a 1/7 twist we’ve seen fairly good early results on cold days at altitude, but we haven’t gone past 200 or so yards since it’s cold and typically all the locations we like to shoot are only available by snowmobile or by a long cross-country ski trek up a lonely forest access road.

   Jim K: “Did you factor in the increased wear that you will have on your CAR-15’s barrels for using ferrous bi-metal jacketed ammo? I understand that your main strategy is to evade any OPFOR that wander your way, and lord willing not have to confront them, however it is a very high probability that you will be putting rounds downrange at some point if SHTF. Even practicing with it, and staying under the 12 round per minute sustained rate of fire for an CAR-15, would cause your barrels to get shot out much faster. I know that up front the Russian ammo may seem like a good idea, but when you factor in the extra barrels, more so than if you were using quality ammunition, I feel like the lower initial cost of that ammunition is a moot point.”

   Don Williams: “1) What barrel twist did you choose for each of your rounds?
   2) And did you look at how tight twists would reduce barrel life from greater wear and tear?”

   Bottom Line Up Front: if your rifle will shoot Tula 75grain well, and your team’s rifles shoot it well, then you could do worse for ammo you’re going to stash or carry as disposable patrol ammo. Remember, this recommendation is or front line ammo carried around, not practice, which operationally should be reloads from your stockpiles of components.

   We believe that using the 1 in 7.7 twist, Melonite AR15Performance barrels as I initially suggested will be a good logistical team swap which is the lowest price, best kinetic upgrade downrange that you could do, but you must test it. We did this independently, however here is the supporting evidence for that statement (I think I should have dropped this into another article via HJL!!) 😉 😉

   [Andrew, Lucky Gunner Labs]: “The difference in price between brass and steel cased (more specifically, copper jacketed and bimetal jacketed) ammunition means that you’ll have plenty of savings with which to buy new barrels – even if you shoot so fast that you replace them every 4,000 rounds.”

   Source here: https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

   The extensive test criteria and numeric quantification for this statement is at the site, well worth considering as an answer for your question. We go a step further and use a different kind of barrel which was not tested, but elements of the barrel which failed are discussed within that article.

   We’re only a few years into our testing and we don’t run thousands of rounds through our guns unless we’re reloading them for practice and for money. Tula works to toss into a hole at $0.25 a pop rather than $0.63 a pop for 6.8. If you’re running thousands of rounds of 75 grain Tula through your barrel on patrols, you’re doing something wrong in your intelligence assessment. If ten years from Zero-Day I’m 6000+ rounds of 5.56 deep of aggressive direct action, I’m not only turning in my barrel, I’m picking a new location to live. Plus, wouldn’t the battlefield pickups of rifles be factored into the equation somehow?

   More on the 5.56mm recommendation of Tula: when we did our total cost of ownership analysis (TCOA) we looked at a certain amount of ammo that we wanted to break in the rifle with, and a certain amount of ammo that we wanted to accurize the weapon for. For 1/7 twist standard NATO toothpick 16” lightweight barreled rifles, we figured that 62 grain to 77 grain would be a sweet spot for this rifle barrel. AR15Performance (ARP) barrels are what we standardized early into for the 6.8 test cases, and we’ve heard good things about their ability to ‘eat’ all ammo for 5.56, so if we were moving to 12.5” 5.56 instead of 6.8, they would be our vendor of choice.

   If you’re not concerned about cost and still want the heavier hollow point bullet, you’re stuck with 77 grain choices that cost about a buck apiece if you want factory quality… which is precisely what drove our adoption towards 21st century 6.8/6.5 options. If we were going to spend a buck a pop, we figured that we wanted larger smash values. Then 6.8SPC prices dropped 40% and we found our sweet spot.

   Why 75 grain Tula .223?

   Price and compatibility for an entire team, along with an entire generation down the line. I’m a dad and I have to consider that it may not be me who is going up those trails. If I wanted to hand load rounds and then store them, I’d have to consider a significant time sink for that process. 55 grain is typically what we’ve stockpiled in the past, particularly at lower altitudes and with less things in the food chain, if you get my drift. 75 grain can bring down a lot of CXP2 game, but I wouldn’t go elk or black bear hunting with it. Google ‘Alaska grizzly and 6.8SPC’ and you’ll find that I’m pretty confident about the 6.8 handling anything in North America. It’s got its detractors however – review this article here: https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/ and if it scares you, stick with the 62-grain.

   Note: *** It’s okay to not use TULA if you have no faith in it. My discussion revolves around adoption of this as the lowest cost and highest impact decision which could be made for those who prefer 5.56mm. Lucky Gunner Labs’ testing showed high pressures with Tula 55 grain, so I would say that with the Melonite ARP barrels using .223 Wylde and a mid-length gas system, you might see some shockingly good results. I refer everyone to try these first – they are to be used to establish a baseline and then see what you think – it’s a risk but not a huge one, and the payoff is that you have devastating and powerful ammo for a quarter dollar per shot.

   More about Melonite from AR15Performance:
   “Nitro-Carburizing, Melonite, QPQ is a heat treat process for barrels that harden the barrels to apx 60 Rockwell so they last longer, are more corrosion resistant inside and out and it also decreases friction in the barrel which can increase velocity and cut down on copper fouling. Chrome lined barrels can decrease accuracy as it is a built up layer inside the barrel. Nitro-carburizing changes the structure of the metal without building a layer in the bore increasing performance but, not decreasing accuracy.”

   …so you see that the Tula test done with a midlength barrel and Melonite chamber could result in far better results. There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch, as Heinlein says, so I recommend to go mythbusting and see what happens on your team. The Lucky Gunner Labs testing used chrome barrels… so that next step we recommend to Melonite makes sense, right?

   Deep Dive, Test Routine for your Homestead’s AR-15

   Aside from just buying about $30 of ammo and running it through different guns and magazines, I recommend the following steps if you choose to get granular about adopting the 75 grain Tula:
   1) Obtain three different barreled AR/MSRs between 1/7 and 1/8 twists and shoot 5 rounds of Tula through them at 50 yards, 100 yards and 200 yards. Compare the results. Repeat this three or four times using the group standard magazines. Review your results with your team.
   2) Determine if you can identify the manufacturer of the barrel, the chamber (.223, 5.56, .223 Wylde) and note what twist and what gas length they all are. Run it past your team to see if you should pick up a set of three barrels.
   3) Take the three barrels and see whether the best results duplicate. Try midlength gas systems rather than carbine.
   4) Try different length barrels ***if*** you are hard set upon 5.56 working for your mission. Otherwise,
   5) Start torture testing your barrels.
   6) Determine if you want to try the 12.5” or 16” ARP-produced .223 Wylde mid-length gas, Melonite protected barrel against your team’s current best standard. Try $30 worth or so and see what you think.

   Why do I recommend 12.5”? Slow Reset, Baby…

   I think the time is going to come (strike that, it’s already here) where having a smaller rifle / pistol that works well for 3-gun is the weapon of choice. Go for the 16” barrel as well, but right now I’m pretty certain that ‘solvent cans’ are going to be a SHTF solution, so losing some length might be preferred to fit into a backpack.
   Additionally, the 12.5” vendor we’re favoring – AR15Performance.com – provides mid-length gas systems which we think mitigate the Tula issues that LuckyGunner reported in their Brass vs. Steel showdown a few years back.

   Explaining Cartridge Elements of the .223/5.56
   Here’s a philosophy of use I am copying from LuckyGunner and AR15 which sum it up; coming from a third party rather than my own opinions which have found similar results.

   [Andrew, Lucky Gunner Labs, LuckyGunner.com]:
   “.223 Remington – Because it’s the only SAAMI standardized cartridge, it’s the only one you’re likely to find used in rifles produced by major manufacturers. I would prefer any of the other three to “regular .223.” However, you will not be at a huge disadvantage as long as you buy mostly .223 ammo. As stated above, you are not likely to encounter major problems with limited amounts of 5.56 in a .223 rifle fired out of necessity or in an emergency. Doing so at a high volume for the long term is probably not a good idea. In terms of a carbine-style AR-15, I see absolutely no reason to purchase one with a .223 Remington chamber.

   “.223 Wylde – Produced by a variety of smaller manufacturers, .223 Wylde can be an excellent choice if it is executed properly. I have personally had overpressure issues with improperly reamed .223 Wylde chambers. I’ve also had excellent accuracy and no pressure signs with 5.56 from properly reamed .223 Wylde chambers. As always, buying a quality product is often the best way to go.

   “5.56mm Noveske Match Mod 0 – Similar in concept to .223 Wylde in that it attempts to strike a balance between pressure and accuracy, it has the advantage of being produced only by Noveske, a shop known for precision and attention to detail. All of the Noveske barrels I’ve owned – about a dozen – have delivered accuracy, precision, and safe, reliable function. This comes at a price, for Noveske barrels are not cheap.

   “5.56mm NATO – The best bet for those looking to shoot high volumes of 5.56mm ammunition without an emphasis on tack-driving accuracy or precision, 5.56 barrels from reliable machine shops will outshoot most humans while also keeping pressures within normal limits. Cheap 5.56 barrels often disappoint.”

   Source: https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/

   Here’s a good summary from an AR15.com article on the twist rate topic which echoes our findings…

   “[DakotaFAL. AR15.com, said]: “In terms of ideal twist and optimum accuracy in an AR:
   “1-9 is ideal for 62 grain M855, but the much longer M856 tracer rerquired an ideal of 1-6, and 1-7 was the compromise, so it became the current mil-spec. As noted above it does fine with bullets up to about 70 grains but is iffy above that depending on muzzle velocity, air density (temp, altitude and humidity dependent) and max range desired.

   “1-12 is superb for 55 grain M193 and was the old mil-spec, but 55 grain shoots almost as well in 1-9 and longer boat tail 55 grain bullets like the M193 do pretty well in most 1-7 barrels as long as you are not seeking bench rest accuracy. 62 grain bullets do not do well with this twist.
   “1-8 is like 1-9 but better suited to weights up to 77 grains. in my opinion it is probably the optimum twist if you want an AR barrel that will give good results with amost anything.
   “1-7 works well with most bullets 55 grains and above, but can be problematic at lower bullet weights and can be problematic with lower quality (i.e. cheaper) bullets in the 55 grain range, especially if you are pushing them to 3250 fps velocities.

   YMMV”
   Source: https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/-/16-501478/#i4684002

   –Wrapping Up

   Personally, my family’s provisioning has many barrels and uppers but we’ve standardized on the AR-15 core platform. We have inexpensive family / house guns that roll 1/7 5.56 Nato. The 12.5” barrels are part of a longer term project which right now seems to be centered on 6.8SPC rather than 5.56mm, so our pick is 16” for 5.56.

   We’ve got a few armorer skilled people we can rely upon in our team, and we look at certain configurations as ‘house guns’ like a lot of gun culture people I know. I have kids that are going to build up their own 80% lower and assemble most of the parts of that rifle so they understand what goes on under the hood. The uppers are important, but the strength of the AR/MSR platform is versatility; kid or girl wants to try a lighter configuration, we have it available. Watchstation in SHTF has a rifle assigned to it that needs to be checked every so often as part of planned maintenance, we have virtually the same configuration available to swap it out.

   Because we’re a mixed platform team everyone came into the group with a 5.56mm AR upper, with a spare .300BLK barrel due to what we knew over five to seven years ago. Some chose 6.8SPC with spare 5.56 and .300BLK barrels which is where we’ve obtained our data from for the past five years. When I started hitting clay pigeons past 400 to 600 yards with my 6.8 ARP 18” barreled 6.8SPC with a stock trigger, I thought we might be on to something more than just more smash, which is how we began testing different platforms and comparing them.

   We also had one guy end up with a 7.62Nato European FAL-compatible which we tested use cases on. I had the sneaking suspicion adding more weight to high altitude operations was probably a bad idea, particularly when it meant you may well have to halve your ammo. We looked around for pouches and gear – expensive. We looked at the off-season training for cardio – important. We did more high altitude hiking. The 7.62 NATO rifle started looking less and less cool for a group adoption as a standard. We looked at the AR-10 and started acquiring (privately, not as a group) test platform components – “…wow, look at the cost of these!!” and not in a good way.

   Finally, I sat down with some operators who were a state away and had some beers. We talked about why they liked what they liked which is what I wrote in the article. We then found some 120 grain SST Hornady ammunition with a sectional density of .395 or .400 which stayed supersonic at high altitude above 7000 feet for roughly 1000 yards. It was $0.80 a pop, putting it well within the range of lower end boxed 6.5CM and .308 match ammo. Now those 600 yard clay pigeon shots were a little easier and frankly, we’d found a bullet which would conceivably reload within .270 as well as 6.8SPC. More of us have owned .270 Winchester bolt rifles, so this seems like a good place to be.
   My next steps:

   – I’ll build up the house guns as 1/7 carbines for 5.56 – build up, as in o from iron sights and red dots to gradually adopt better sights or optics. My kids can use these as we progress into 3-gun participation.

   – I’ll continue my 6.8 ARP DMR development and increase my optics to upgrade from 3-9x and 2-7x into something like a 4.5-14x illuminated reticle, keeping the 45 degree offset sights for close encounters.

   – I’ll continue testing the 12.5” 6.8 ARP equipped with Holosun circle dot sight, to see how well that package works. Holosun is made in China but… it’s much less expensive than the competition and we need a better red dot sight for low light.

   Having bear scat around your retreat and a deer kill off your front porch by a lion in the winter means you stay prepared and ready, and you constantly seek to improve your preparedness and readiness (P&R) posture before the Soft Reset turns into Hard Reset. God Bless you too, Jim K, and the rest of the readers. I appreciate your feedback and diligently hope that my research and data driven logic saves lives.

   Alpine Evader

9. On a larger scope who is the enemy for a group of people living in areas that are remote?

   I mean it seems the strategy is built for defending the area from the military. The common thug or just hungry people will not find your area at least not in any great number.
   In three to six months they will be dead from starvation or the violence of the chaos.

   The desperate people will go to small towns and farms.
   The idea of hiking up to a area at 5,000 to 8,000 feet is not where food is typically located.

   I know basic security is very important but food and the ability to grow it is number one priority. If you have a bad winter or a blight on crops, you are done.

   Lastly what is the plan for hunters going for game in the general area as hungry people will do in a crisis.

10. Cache for m1a would be 1 20 rd mag and ammo on stripper clips in bandoleers with a speed loader. M1a’s come with a stripper clip guide on the action to load directly into the mag. Less mags reduces weight and cost significantly and makes interoperability greater(after SHTF a lot more .308 than the exotics you are suggesting).

11. Skip: “On a larger scope who is the enemy for a group of people living in areas that are remote?
    I mean it seems the strategy is built for defending the area from the military.”
    Thank you for your comments. I think that the way I’m understanding this question is, “Who could possibly want to pick a fight way out away from everyone else living in a city?”
    I think the way we figured it – veterans and retired law enforcement – was that distance and time are your friends. The first 180 days of a Hard Reset are going to be pretty brutal, at least until there are a lot less people within the limits of population. However, there are always going to be those who want to take rather than work for their meal.
    Skip: “The common thug or just hungry people will not find your area at least not in any great number. In three to six months they will be dead from starvation or the violence of the chaos.”
    You may not realize the number of common thugs we have in this country. Bureau of Prison statistics shows 6.5 million (6,500,000) people either incarcerated or on probation or parole as of 2013. By contrast, Department of Labor shows that only 650,000 police are actively employed. That’s ten to one against… Let that sink in for a minute. The balancing factor is that most of these criminals are urban in nature and will more than likely gravitate towards urban areas upon release or escape in a Soft or Hard Reset.

    Skip: “The desperate people will go to small towns and farms. The idea of hiking up to a area at 5,000 to 8,000 feet is not where food is typically located.
    – I have a background that has had me consulting in physical security for over two decades now. I always have people telling me, “Yeah, there’s no way somebody will do [jump the fence, climb the wall, etc. etc.] that…”
    I ask them, “Is that because you wouldn’t do it? Or because it’s not physically possible?” They tell me, just about every time, “It’s not possible.”
    “Not possible for a young guy, about twenty, or an older guy like me,” I ask. “Nobody would do that.” Then, I hop the fence, grab the wall at an angle and scale it, or some other such nonsense, looking back at their shocked face. “If I can do it, a teenager can do it.”
    The same logic of physical security applies here. I’ve been hungry – really hungry – for days during SERE and other survival training courses. You get a strong sense of smell. I’m going to tell you that there’s no predicting what humans will do aside from predicting that they will do whatever is necessary to feed themselves and their children.
    While there may be a wish that this won’t happen, I deal in data driven probabilities. I would love to be pleasantly surprised but… If locusts run out of food, they hit the wind.
    Winter is coming.
    Wherever the roads lead, you’ll find someone taking that axis out of a gutted, burned out metro area until they reach the end of the line.
    Skip: “I know basic security is very important but food and the ability to grow it is number one priority. If you have a bad winter or a blight on crops, you are done.”
    – I believe that you are correct when you state that there is a balance to survivalism. For us, the good news is that we picked a region that supports 50% of its Neolithic population from 1000 years ago. The better news is that 35% of those households or more are, according to our veteran organization resources, veteran households. The even better observed fact we’ve observed is a huge number of self reliant and survival-centric mindsets in the population we meet. It’s good to mention for other folks to remember, but this isn’t to be taken or assumed that we somehow have been focusing only on security to the exclusion of all other disciplines of survival. That would be a false assumption and certainly not one that I allude to in the other segments. A lot of the items we wanted to start – food bank, seed bank, community kitchen – were all in full swing within a year or two of our settling there, started by longer term residents than ourselves. Locals won’t go hungry at least for a few years of a crisis, but they do need security so that they don’t lose their produce to raiders and marauders.
    – The other philosophy is that you can get by quite well with raising the right amount of rabbits, ducks, turkeys and chickens for protein. Rabbits love grass and scraps of produce, turkeys love grasshoppers, and chickens produce a lot of protein in the form of eggs.
    – Finally, consider aquaponics, baby… Believe it or not, some beef and dairy producers are beginning to roll into aquaponics for year-round grass production as feed for their animals which extends the harvest season for beef. We’ve got a few plans of our own for how to handle those issues. It’s a bit off-topic, but falls into the ‘why high altitude’ comments which are in comments on the first couple articles in the series. I thought I’d toss that in here because others have assumed that high altitude means desolate and no growing season in the sub-alpine regions. Just assume we have it covered, I cannot really go into further detail for OPSEC purposes but it has a lot to do with the rest of the factors of the community we picked.
    Skip: “Lastly what is the plan for hunters going for game in the general area as hungry people will do in a crisis.”
    – Picking a region that supports twice as many people in stone age times sets the stage for positive results right away. I’ll choose to answer this question in a more relevant method for the caliber topic. I wouldn’t send out hunters in any less than Fire Team numbers. If it were SHTF / WROL or the Hard Reset rather than the Soft Reset, I’d more than likely muffle the sound of my hunting rifle. 6.8SPC works on grizzly bear on down, one shot, DRT (dead right there) in many cases.
    Still, there are threats you’re not even considering which might explain why it’s not a bad plan to have a higher caliber weapon in your fire teams. When you consider the amount of exotic animals which may escape in a Soft Reset or Hard Reset are startling:
    “It’s estimated that the number of captive tigers alone is at least 5,000—most kept not by accredited zoos but by private owners…”
    Source: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2014/04/exotic-pets/slater-text
    “How many of these cats are out there right now, in backyards, in farms, or in whatever ad-hoc facility someone designs to keep them in? “Well over 10,000,” says Barylak — and that’s mostly tigers with a good number of lions and smaller groups of leopards and other wild cats.
    Source: http://www.businessinsider.com/armed-police-freed-tigers-lions-and-bears-from-captivity-2016-3

    “One of the world’s largest populations of tigers exists not in the wild—but in captivity in the United States. With an estimated 5,000 tigers, the U.S. captive tiger population exceeds the approximately 3,200 tigers in the wild.”

    Source: https://www.worldwildlife.org/stories/more-tigers-in-american-backyards-than-in-the-wild

    There are more than humans to worry about should SHTF. Ten thousand big cats across America is no small matter, particuarly with 5,000 of them being tigers. The calibers we mention here are the minimum of what it would take to kill a big cat, but it can be done. The 6.8SPC has taken down grizzlies with one hit, a 6.5Creedmoor would likely work well on a big cat as would anything bigger than the stock AR-15.

    Eventually those criminals who survive in the cities will radiate outward, well organized and most probably repurposing fleets of snowplows, garbage trucks and armored cars. We’ve got a plan for that, but ‘basic’ security probably won’t handle that level of planning. If you don’t have a team or you aren’t working on your ‘basic’ security skills (see Max Velocity for some good baselines) then you’d better reconsider your stance that food is more important.

    My recommendation to you, sir, is that you have sorely underestimated your threat matrix if you think that 6.5 million criminals and 10,000 finely tuned killing machines weighing upwards of 600 pounds is only a ‘basic’ security problem.

    The good news is that this response is hopefully your ‘red-pill’ moment and provides some God-inspired impetus to consider that our lives may change through factors that we can only control with the proper tools in our hands and skills in our brains, with courage in our hearts.

12. VT: “Cache for m1a would be 1 20 rd mag and ammo on stripper clips in bandoleers with a speed loader. M1a’s come with a stripper clip guide on the action to load directly into the mag. ”

    IF you carried an equivalent combat loadout of 220 rounds of .308 my math shows that the round weight, averaged, would be 16.6 pounds. Comparing apples to apples, 16.8 pounds of 25 round 6.8 magazines would provide 350 rounds in fifteen magazines, and 500+ rounds of 5.56mm in 16 magazines.

    VT: “Less mags reduces weight and cost significantly and makes interoperability greater(after SHTF a lot more .308 than the exotics you are suggesting).”

    The key element of weight – rifle and ammo – operating from 8000 to 11,000 feet you’d better be an amazing athlete to lug all of that weight around.

    That being said, stripper clips are good storage for a cache. I’m all for .308 at lower altitudes, but you get above 5000 to 7000 feet, and all that weight starts really working against you… and against your team. That’s why we put into place our group policy concerning .308; we’re not touching it and anyone who thinks they can is required to run the standard training routine AND stock their own cache materials.

    Not as many younger veterans who can hack the high altitude regimen carry .308 as you might think. It’s mostly guys who haven’t tried to tote all that stuff around at higher elevations, so interoperability in your region may vastly differ than interoperability at altitude that we’ve observed.

13. sooooooooo how many of you guys expect to live long enough to burn up that 100k of ammo…………maby look at food and seed and other methods of production…….it all seems to focus on the latest wiz bang toy vs 99.9 percnt of combat is just getting to the fight in good health and a high starting point. Just my opinion

14. Alpine Evader, I disagree with your definition of a hard reset.

    If an event like an EMP or full scale nuclear war occurred than death to the majority of Americans would be measured in weeks not months.
    The reports I have read just on the absence of trucking shows the availability of gas is gone in a week.
    That fits the observations in Florida with the last hurricane.

    All food would be gone in a month since warehouses no longer exit due to just in time delivery protocols.

    So the idea of a band of thugs roming the country side or mountainous areas is highly remote.

    And with an EMP one must consider the radiation that will be in the atmosphere for centuries from dry cooling ponds and dry reactor containment buildings.

    There will be no one around to keep them cool and maintained.

    The only groups in the world that will have resources and mobility are the militaries.
    And if one of these units finds you and wants whatever you have, they will just take it.

    Note, every word in every post is logged and stored on some server of NSA or the foreign counterparts.
    And since every survivalist compound will generate a heat signature, they know within feet of where you are. And they will know your combat tactics too.

    However you mentioned Scripture and mankind’s rule doesn’t end by an EMP or Nuclear war, (reference Revelations).
    Lastly your level of security is unique but have you considered the most devastating problems of maintaining it with an enemy from within?

    Anyway, good luck and Thank you for your kind replies.

15. In response to the article:
    -If you’re not running suppressors there is zero reason for 12-14″ barrels, especially if some use is indoors. IMO, 16″ is the ideal length for a 5.56 carbine. Look at enhanced profile barrels for potentially lighter weight and definitely better balance than some of the slightly shorter barrels; also midlength gas equals smoother shooting (more accurate) and more reliable as well than carbine systems… And worth reminding that the original SPR in Navy configuration was 16″; compromise w/ Army specs led to 18″ middleground between the 16″ Navy and 20″ Army desires…
    -I do not understand your squad configurations. Previously you mentioned Max Velocity. He does advocate 4 man squad minimum for buddy pairs and bounding overwatch… However if you’re going to have a relatively static C&C/Overwatch element then you really need a 5-6 man squad to be ideally effective. So 2 teams of buddy pairs and an overwatch/C&C element of 1-2 guys. In any combat you will have attrition so starting at partial strength squads is a recipe for disaster, especially if you want to care for or evacuate wounded from danger. 3 man squad, each dude is effectively on his own… See the old posts regarding this on the web archive of Max Velocity’s old website. He’s since removed and behind paywall in forum (IIRC) but covers some of same he’s posted here… The one you link actually covers some of this in brief in recommending 3 teams plus weapon support for 4 for the CUTT…
    -Except for DMR or a support team, I see zero benefit of mixing calibers within your combat squads, again needing a 5-6 man squad or 3 teams of 4 man squads for such additional caliber mixing to “make sense.” MV article you linked discusses in regards for maneuver teams…
    -Playing Defense from your home base vs Offense results in the weight penalties of larger calibers being significantly reduced… Even if just looking at 7.62×39 vs 5.56…
    -Honestly, I don’t get your fire team complexity and various outfits… To me, it sounds like how I go about justifying new guns to the mrs. For shtf, KISS and Reliability should be paramount. Quite frankly, yours aren’t.
    -3 teams are really all that’s needed… Maneuver, overwatch, and heavy. Maneuver team by teams can choose 7.62×39 vs 5.56; heck even 9mm subguns if AO allows (9mm indoors and urban is much preferred to rifle calibers). Overwatch .243, .308, 6.5 Grendel, .300 win mag, etc all are options. Heavy .300 win mag, .338 lapua, .50 bmg, .308 battle rifles in concert are all options.

    Comments:
    -again mobil 1 is not ideal for gun lube. Yes, it works but is toxic and weapon needs very different from auto needs. See weaponshield for current favorite, moving away from slip 2000 to ws.
    -Bullet shape and ballistics coefficients are far second to reliability in inclement conditions.
    -So much more reliability improvements and testing on 5.56 AR15 platforms has been completed/are available than any other caliber, including non-standardized AR10s (many manufacturers have varying .308 specs)…
    -A 12.5 midlength system will have nearly all the same issues as 10.5 carbine length one… Yes, russian powders are generally slower burning so longer length is a plus; however, the dwell time is exactly the same and dwell time is a large part of reliability issues with short barrels, especially when shooting cheap ammo like Russian that have greater variations in powder charges/burn rates
    -Barrels, anything in 5.56 that requires 1-7 twist is likely too long to reliably fit/feed out of standard AR15 mags… Unless shooting tracers, 1-8 is all you need and will give you superior accuracy with most common loadings.
    -Your big cats and other predators is the first where the need for a larger caliber than 5.56 in a maneuver team resonated with me… That said, 7.62×39 can adequately kill these animals too and with proven reliability in many weapons. Look at VZ58s, handy like an M1 carbine with much more firepower.

    I appreciated your series, and there’s a lot intriguing here, which is why I took the time to reply. BUT the complexity and cost of your system and recommendations don’t seem to align with equivalent benefit by my estimations. (And I like data too, ha.)

16. *Should expand on short barrels.
    In 5.56, 10.5 carbine gas and 12.5 midlength gas ARs can be made reliable with most ammo if they have a permanently mounted suppressor. Without a suppressor, they really need configured for a particular type of ammo and a muzzle brake/linear comp/other booster that increases back pressure/effectively increase dwell time is also helpful (but those muzzle devices are often longer and heavier than standard A2 flashhider, negating some benefit of short barrel).
    Now a carbine length 12.5 AR in 5.56 can be made reliable and is the shortest barrel length that BCM recommends IIRC.
    The issue w/ short barrel ARs w/o suppressors is 1) reliability and increased wear on bolt, etc, but 2) that the scenarios in which their shortness is a benefit also experience a significant penalty of muzzle blast and muzzle flash at near flashbang levels. So short ARs like unsuppressed 12.5s really only work well in vehicle IF you shoot the gun with the muzzle outside of the vehicle… Indoors, they are a drag…

    So if you must go short barrel in an AR .300 BLK that uses fast burning pistol powders or a blowback 9mm is the way to go… 9mm w/ 16″ barrel has noise signature similar to 22lr. .300 BLK is louder… 9mm suppressors are cheaper and typically last longer than rifle ones… .300 BLk requires a more robust and more expensive suppressor. So there’s give and take…

    6.8 spc is more like 5.56 in the barrel length cost/benefit analysis than .300 blk. But again, .300 blk and mixed ammo kaboom issues are very real and should not be neglected in your decision-making process…

17. RSR: If you’re not running suppressors there is zero reason for 12-14″ barrels, especially if some use is indoors.

    –I clearly mentioned the use of solvent traps. Maybe you should google solvent traps and see what it comes up with. You can discuss suppressors all you want which requires a Federal approval under your own login and I can discuss solvent traps. Perhaps those two things have something in common that you’d like to relate to the audience but the length of the barrel has very much something to do with both issues. Essentially I think we are in agreement.

    RMR: Except for DMR or a support team, I see zero benefit of mixing calibers within your combat squads, again needing a 5-6 man squad or 3 teams of 4 man squads for such additional caliber mixing to “make sense.” MV article you linked discusses in regards for maneuver teams…

    – I think the key phrases that you may have missed are that we would love to have full strength squads but we anticipate and practice for less than full strength. Additionally we are not expecting to be anything but security for other interoperational (and much younger) units. The best part is that we also have capability in full defensive mode but we also enjoy a bit more reach with the rifle cartridges we’ve chosen.

    RMR: I appreciated your series, and there’s a lot intriguing here, which is why I took the time to reply. BUT the complexity and cost of your system and recommendations don’t seem to align with equivalent benefit by my estimations. (And I like data too, ha.)

    – Great and thank you for reading and taking the time to reply. You prefer 7.62×39 and I prefer 6.8SPC. I didn’t see anything relating to the altitude we’re talking about operating at – do you happen to have any relevant experience in high altitude operations and logistics? We’re essentially trying to trim off 34 pounds of combat loadout in favor of a 16 pound combat loadout – that is the advantage of the 6.8SPC and the advantage of the 6.5 Grendel; they’re offering .308 ballistics in an AR-15 sized package.

    RMR: Your big cats and other predators is the first where the need for a larger caliber than 5.56 in a maneuver team resonated with me… That said, 7.62×39 can adequately kill these animals too and with proven reliability in many weapons. Look at VZ58s, handy like an M1 carbine with much more firepower.

    – Thanks for the considerations; the big cat and 6.5 million prisoner dilemmas are ones that most people don’t consider. I think the 7.62×39 is just as capable against big cats or bears but… I think that .308 has better penetration into bears than .30 AK rounds and I know for a fact that DRT one shot stops have been made on North American black bears and Alaskan Grizzly Bears (sort of a blend between lower 48 grizzly and Browns if I recall correctly) which tilted the decision in favor of the lighter platform and better performance between 400 and 600 yards that the 6.8 has.

    RMR: …mobil 1 is not ideal for gun lube. Yes, it works but is toxic…|
    – Wupps! It works! It’s cheap! It works under low temperatures and now we’re into preferences since I don’t care about the toxicity! If it works it’s cheap and it works in -40F temperatures… It’s my choice. The others you mention are not going to be as cheap as what I proposed… therefore they don’t work as well for the logistics.

    RMR: [summarized] barrel length gas tube length and fire team sizes…

    – Most of the rest of the items you mentioned we’re going to have to agree to disagree upon. Which I think is fair. There are good points and such but really most of them are preference.

    – I think you and I would have a lot to talk about over beers but a lot of what I would say is that altitude and weight were our key considerations. However I would like to thank you for writing because I will put out a specific altitude / high altitude primer for survival that I think you will find interesting.

    All in all I really appreciate the feedback because I think there’s definitely a gap in the survival knowledge that we hold so dear and it consists of what goes on at high altitude. Thanks! I’ll submit another article and this one will include more visualizations of the high altitude areas we discuss.

18. John Killen: sooooooooo how many of you guys expect to live long enough to burn up that 100k of ammo…………maby look at food and seed and other methods of production…….it all seems to focus on the latest wiz bang toy vs 99.9 percnt of combat is just getting to the fight in good health and a high starting point. Just my opinion

    – I’m puzzled again about how an article that has to do with the technical points of firearms is supposed to somehow work in more about seeds and food production but I think I can address that with a future article. I’ll write one that focuses on the environmental aspects of high altitude and how they pertain to survival. I’ll even include pictures and watermark them for survivalblog.com.

    – To be clear. My survival group consists of veterans who are focusing on all aspects of survival. My comments and my direct article discuss many elements of the location that we have chosen which reinforce this. There is this funny thing about humanity in that those who want to just work the earth and be left alone are often those who are quite happy to settle for slavery. I’m not one of those guys. In fact I’m a person who very much has a history of knowing the right way to use violence of action yet… I’m also ethical. I’m not going to oppress those around me who work the earth but I do know that the best way to handle those who would oppress me is at a distance, at a time and place of my choosing, and with as many of my friends and neighbors who will respond to the call.

    That is the focus of this article. Thanks for your comments.

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