Hi Hugh,
I am interested in what legal actions should a person take and when, as to regarding The United States of America as a “Christian” nation, especially under the first Amendment concerning the separation of Church and state? In this past year many people have arrived in this country, that are a different faith than Christianity. Members of Christianity are now facing increasing persecution by simply professing their faith openly.
It appears on the surface Christianity is still strong, Yet many people in this nation are losing their personal Morals and Values. Furthermore, I believe is that the more people who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, while rejecting Sharia law; The better we will all be in the long run. Or it may be a matter of Revolution. What do you believe? – M.S.
HJL’s Comment:
Contrary to public opinion today, the founding fathers did not want “Freedom from Religion”. They simply didn’t want a state that controlled the religion (like the governments of England and Germany controlled the church.) Nor did they want an organized religion that controlled the state (like many governments were controlled by the Roman Catholic Church.) They wanted each man to live by ethical principles and carry those same principles over into their public office. They wanted tolerance. If you were Catholic, so be it. If you were Presbyterian, so be it, and so on. However, even tolerance, as the founding fathers desired it, has limits. If one religion attempts to impose itself upon a people, that tolerance is short lived.
I have my own opinions on why men of religious standing have forsaken their duty to their fellow man by allowing evil and corrupt men to assume the roles of leadership, but that is probably a discussion for another place. We will not see any improvements in our country until righteous men stand up and do what is right.
The founders actually left the religion issue up to the states. When the Constitution was ratified there were states that actually had “state religions” and they continued to do so after ratification. They didn’t want the federal government involved in the issue.
Allow me to opine for a moment. In a community that does not trust the government for anything (and rightly so) I find it stunning when I hear people ready to allow it into religion. The Freedom of Religion clause in the first amendment is there to protect us from that very thing. How would anyone expect that to work? “Government approved religion” sounds like a Devil’s bargain if ever there is one.
Chris in VA :
“Government approved religion” sounds like more Tyranny with manors with a whole lotta help from socialist fascist.
Socialist Fascist is a oxymoron,socialism is state control of means of production,while Fascism is a cabal controlling the state with the assistance of oligarchs(the means of production)
VT :
Yes I am well aware. Thanks for doubling down on my point.
I have heard most of my life that the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution calls for “separation of church and state! I defy ANYBODY to prove that! It does NOT SAY THAT in any way, shape or form! It is a PROHIBITION ON CONGRESS only, NOTHING ELSE! It starts out “Congress shall make no law….” I don’t know how any judge-who is supposed to be well educated-can pervert this Amendment to say anything else! Everybody should read the 10 Amendments periodically so they know what they are talking about instead of repeating other people’s babble!
Dario Monje :
Wat did I just get through saying above????
“…as to regarding The United States of America as a “Christian” nation, especially under the first Amendment concerning the separation of Church and state?”
‘M.S.’…a steak dinner to you brother if you can find the words ‘church and state shall be separated’ in the First amendment.
De. Francis Schaefer posited years ago that America has fallen and we are now what he termed a Post Christian nation . I was startled recently to hear a preacher on the shortwave from NC praying for the Almighty to curse America and bring her down low for the millions upon millions of pre borns we murder everyday . After listening to him for a few minutes I could not argue against his sermon . As in the days of Babylonian captivity a good prophecy or two and foreknowledge will only enhance our prepping efforts .
Babylonian captivity?
I agree the phrase “separation of church and state” is from one if the federalist papers and is not in the constitution.
The 2 problems with the above phrase is that first it was taken from a letter between Thomas Jefferson responding to a letter from a church. So it wasnt even between 2 of the founders but simply Jeffersons opinion. The second problem is not only general acceptance that its in the constitution but over the years the phrase seems to have morphed into “seperation of church FROM state”.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
In the actual article again a single word seems to have been exchanged. If you take out “establishment” and put in “endorsement” then the Establishment Clause has been judicially transformed to such an extreme extent that it now means any religious symbol on public property can be judicially declared a violation because it might be seen as some official government endorsement of religion.
So what should we do about it? IMO an Article 5 convention of states is the only answer.
While the majority of our founders were Protestant Christians, the United States was founded upon God’s natural law, not Christianity. As for ‘separation of church and state’, it simply does not exist in any founding document.
Sadly, after 65 years of almost perpetual wars against sovereign nations our Christian roots are a distant memory. Today we choose which nations to nuke and which to defend with American blood as if we are playing fantasy football. Our Founders’ republic is dead.
I totally agree with Roger. The rest of the problem is that WE Christians are totally to blame for ALL the c**p that this nation has become. Why do I say that? I will give one example of hundreds. IN my state they were arguing about gay marriage downtown at the govt building and hundreds of supposed gay people were there and one of the congressmen from my state looked dead at the camera and said “ where are the churches on this issue?” He said that because not ONE preacher was here opposing this action nor was anyone else from any church down there opposing it. I was not either. We are all terrified of what gays will do to our families if we protest. We are now just a bunch of ninnies. Marin Luther King has been quoted many times as saying “ when we get to Heaven and stand before the judgement seat of Hod we will not only be judges for what we did, but also for what we did NOT do”. I am chicken most are chicken. We do not want to lose what we have In order to keep it. So as a result we let them take it one cut at a time until we bleed to death on the sidewalk in front of what used to be our house. Now it is theirs. – JMO
Jack,
Hear, Hear! I always find it incredibly amusing to hear those that fantasize about defeating hordes of marauders during SHTF, yet fail to stand up to the transgendered and homosexuals that are currently taking over their local and state governments. Thank you for being brave enough to admit your faults.
” I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.”- Revelations 3:15-16
Jack & D.D. :
YYYYYEEEESSSS…………finally!!!!
In the late ’80’s or early ’90’s the Pope came to the U.S. and said NO to the homosexuals! I agree.
The last time I looked a square peg still does not fill round hole properly.
1) If you wishes to determine the original intent of the Founders, then perhaps the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli — approved unanimously by the US Senate — could be a consideration. Article 11:
“Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries”
2) Our Founders recognized that churchs — like any HUMAN institution — are inherently prone to sin. That history showed truly horrible crimes had been committed by men thinking they were speaking for God but instead were possessed by Satan.
3) We are all governed by moral values that are received by our religion. But when you allow a church to take secular power then you give it the power to impose truly horrible punishments on those who pursue even slightly different religions. What protestent wants to be put in the position of suffering death if he disagrees with the Catholic Church. And what Catholic wants to give a Protestent church the power to torture Catholics if they don’t commit blasphemy and endorse Protestent doctrine.
4) Our Founders knew the horrors that result and were determined stop it from occurring here. You can NOT introduce your church into politics without having it besmirched thereby.
Note also the ORIGINAL text of the US Constitution , Article VI:
” no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States”
How is America a Christian nation ? how is England a Christian nation ? how is France a Christian nation ? how is Australia a Christian nation ? how are ANY of the so called West Christian nations ?, there is none ! all of them have abandoned any premise of holding up biblical statutes, a case in point, England,USA et al ALL are bombing ISIS into so called into smithereens, but notice at the same time, they allow these foreign invaders to come live in the West and then of course they ( muslims ) will supplant the democratic system with sharia law within our society, so let’s ask the big question, why are we bombing these loonies but supporting them while preaching tolerance of multicultural enforcement ? that is highly hyocritical , don’t even mention SSM and the fear of confronting zealots of this movement, will I confront it ?, yes and no, I will pick my battles very very carefully, so you should also, we are told there will be a remnant left for when Jesus comes for us, that time is near, hundreds of millions of Christians are caught up in the prosperity gospel mantra, sold by hundreds of greedy false preachers, if they don’t read their bible to discover falsehood from dung, why should you go expend your money, time, energy and probably your life vainly if God has not asked you so ?, since Roe Vs Wade, how many tens of millions of babies died ?, how is God not sharpening his sword for earthly judgement ? the answer is he IS sharpening his sword ! I want to make sure I am not in his way.
The founding fathers lived through”christian tolerance” with people shunned,tarred and feathered,run out of town(all possessions stolen),forced tithes(even if you belonged to another church),torture,and murder(burned at the stake/drowned etc). Learn about places like Providence,RI or New Orleans where persecution was greatly reduced. Read the “Celestial Acts” that prevented basic human and legal rights based on religion(nonchristians were openly persecuted). If that is Christianity,it is evil and should be eliminated. History shows it as the bloodiest thing created with rivers of blood,pain and misery as its product.
I agree that Christianity was used (misused) as a tool for governing the masses and to acquire power and wealth. But that doesn’t change the fact that the sublime teachings of Jesus Christ are still the ONLY way to achieve true peace and salvation both in this life and after. We’re the ones who mucked everything up, not Him.