Why a Handout Gun?, by D.B.

56 Comments

1. Error – I missed that the anticipated engagement ranges at the retreat will be UNDER 400 yards – if it were over 400, you would let that fight go or allow the bad guys to approach more closely, thus giving you a higher percentage shot. No matter how many times you read through things…..AGH!

   DB

   1. I have to say, one of the better articles on this subject. Often articles on this matter are written by pretentious blowhard mall ninjas. Your approach, logic, and common sense presentation, along with realistic explanations and defense of your positions made for an excellent and informative read. Well done sir.

2. If you’re really talking about untrained or ‘lightly’ trained people, especially women, I don’t think that there is a better choice than the M1 Carbine with modern ammo. Simple manual of arms, lightweight, low recoil, simple iron sights set for 100yds and 20-30 round capacity.

   The M1 Carbine is the rifle I have taught most women to shoot with and once they see how easy it is, they invariably end up asking me to get them one. And that’s easy with both the USGI and after market guns that use the USGI format (I tend to stay away from Universals).

   Some will complain about the ‘stopping power’ of the .30 carbine round, but with modern ammo and the expected ranges that lightly trained shooters will use them it has the stopping power of a .357 magnum.

3. Mark S – Yes – this platform would work – however –

   Where would I get spare parts?

   Where would I get spare mags – no Magpul PMAGs here!

   Where would I get ammo! No Mil Surplus = higher stockage cost – not a common cartridge

   Tough to mount an optic

   I agree – slightly built people would be able to rock with these in using them, but you surrender the tidal wave of cheap mags, parts and ammo available for the AR and AK platforms.

   If you go this route buy these three things (parts, ammo, mags) cheap and stack them deep!

   DB

   1. First, it’s a great article, I should have mentioned that.

      As North Woods said, Sarco has a great parts supply for the M1 Carbine and ebay.com and gunbroker.com also have a lot of parts.

      I get 20 round mags at the gunshows for $9-10 and 30 rounders for $14-15, but I prefer the 20 round.

      If you want to mount a optic an Ultimak rail is aobut $90. I have them on 2 of my M1s, one is configured as a scout rifle with a 2-7x scope and popup angled irons. The other I cut the barrel down to 16.25″ and am in the process of shortening the stock for a smaller vehicle/HD weapon with a red dot and a laser light combo. (these modified guns are an IJ and a Plainfield, not USGI guns. I’d post pictures if I knew how)

4. The M1 Carbine is indeed a excellent platform for smaller and partly disabled. As for parts and ammo go to Firearms News the Sarco Co carries an excelent line of parts and 30cal carbine by up to case. I receive no financial renumeration from Sarco but am very happy with the parts and service. I now have put away parts for M1.

5. Agreed. I’d rather have five $600 rifles than one $3000 rifle. My retreat won’t watch itself when I need to get some shut-eye, collect water, cook or spend time with family. Also, I won’t want to give up my rifle while someone else is on security. One rifle for every able-bodied adult at your retreat.

6. Thank you Jason for your kind words. I am quite pleased I was able to provide some value to you!

   DB

7. Thanks for sharing that info, North Woods – that helps make the use an M-1 Carbine much more feasible.

   DB

8. Great article and spot on with the extra rifles and being painted and ready. I’m lacking on handguns however most everyone I know carries all the time anyway so it would be more limited in what I need.

9. Good article. When I bought a couple of “extra” ar’s my wife thought that I was wasting money. Your article is exactly why I bought the spares. I also caught some heat when I bought spare parts (complete lower parts kits) and extra stripped lowers, also extra bcg’s. I was looking to the future. Also purchased some other extra parts for the pistols that we carry (all are 9mm). We have extra hunting rifles in a variety of calibers for trade. Keeping our primary calibers in 556/223 (all use both cartridges) and 9mm for pistols. Again, a few other pistols in other calibers for trading material. Great article!

10. After spending much time debating all of these ideas, I too have come to a conclusion identical to the author on all points. Whenever someone asks what gun they should get the answer is always Glock 17/19 and AR15. I don’t particularly even like them as far as looks go, and they are painfully boring to practice with, but they are THE best tools for the application.

11. Matt in OK – you and me both – I have one that needs the Krylon baptism – garden chores took precedence. Thanks for the kind words.

    Jerry in NC – I hear you, brother! Have that T-shirt, most definitely! My Lovely Spousal Unit doesn’t seem to see as much of the oncoming freight train of disaster as I do. I am right there with you – BCGs, parts, ruptured case head extractors, etc., etc., etc.. Cleaning kits are not sexy, but they are sorely needed!

    DB

12. Very good article. Mini 14s were never mentioned. Terrific rifle and the only stainless battle rifle in the universe. Piston driven means it runs filthy. It comes with the best combat sights I’ve ever seen on a stock rifle. Where do I find people for the group who are serious? I’m 69 and most of the people I know are physical wrecks and useless eaters. I need younger soldiers.,,,Mike

13. I know dozens of younger ones and women that can handle an AR-10.
    We’re out in the boonies. Every dirtbag casing our location will have a hunting rifle of some sort in .30 cal or close.
    Suburbanites might be better off with smaller caliber weapons, but out here, we’ll be engaging at 300 yds.

    1. I too agree with author. I’m a former U.S. Army soldier and I believe the AR platform is much maligned. To me it is a tool, I have found it does a pretty good job of it if you take care her. As for Glocks. Yep. Wife had a heck of a time finding something she liked, until I said here try this one. G22. After she shoots a mag through it, she says get me one. LOL. As for distance AR platforms. I have Colt HBar with Match trigger, made into Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR) with an Hi-Lux 1-8×26 for a bit of reach out and touch. Use 75 or 77 grain.

       Now if those darn suppressors would be a shorter lead time to acquire, then we would be in business.

14. One addition I’d make to the add-ons: ambi bolt release. I set up a rifle for dear daughter #3, who’s a southpaw, and immediately saw the advantage to these for the rest of the world. One (righty) can easily hit the bolt release without having to bring the rifle down. One note of caution though: they do not work with all uppers.

15. This article does a fine job of presenting a plan for those who have the funds to purchase a dozen rifles, accessories, ammunition, spare parts, and accessories; and for those who already own the bulk of it. And the details recommended are excellent.

    For those of us who are still spread too thin to do this, remember that 12 people who are equipped with a normal farm’s supply of miscellaneous weapons are still a substantial defense if the users are disciplined, organized and determined.

    Might the best source of said dozen people, be the neighbors to the right, and the neighbors to the left?

    Let’s say we have a typical homestead that has rimfire rifle(s), shotgun(s), sporting rifle(s), and handgun(s). Even a single weapon from each category, passed around between shifts of duty, would pose a formidable deterrent, when backed up by various non-firearm options that are waiting to be recognized. But many farm families already have a dozen firearms.

    The first priority is to ensure that all of them are in good working order; that any worn parts are attended to; that they are properly zeroed; kept clean; and that suitable ammunition is available for use, in sufficient quantity.

    For aiding non-military-pattern weapons in providing a sustained level of fire, one accessory that is useful is a simple cartridge belt, such as is sold by Gallati International for $15-20. Another accessory that is especially useful on rimfire rifles, is a simple stock pouch that holds 50+ cartridges at the ready.

    When dealing with untrained persons, it may be better for them to hit several times a minute with a single shot, than to miss 59 times a minute with an AR. But the biggest question is, can untrained persons be safely entrusted with a firearm in the first place? A bow has significant advantages, in that the user can actually see what they are doing, and the effects stay reasonably close to home–rather than affecting neighbors who are completely out of sight.

    On the other hand, a farm kid that has learned to be SAFE and disciplined with his .22 in eliminating varmints, can probably pick up an AR and do the same after a few minutes’ instruction.

    Discipline is the better half of warfare. A wise predator has strategic patience, and will endure your deterrent measures until you relax. When a significant gap occurs in your security, they may still wait quite a while before striking. But expect the strike to be devastating.

    So, my point is, cover all your bases, and don’t be too trusting of persons that haven’t been through YOUR boot camp.

    1. Good Article. Made me think. I’ve got some guns but don’t have the finances to change to a suggested standardized platform, and I might be a little too old/stov up to do much of a 72 hr patrol. I live in a rural area and most everyone has a .22 LR, a .223 for coyotes/prairie dogs and a .308 or .30-06 even if they don’t don’t currently use it because they like their 300 Win Mag or 300 RUM. Seems to me that my best investment is more 22LR, .223, .308 ammo to keep my neighbors in the fight. And though a new Glock sounds like fun, more ammo for .38 and .44 spl seems wiser.

    2. First off, this is an excellent article, definetly the best I have seen on this very important subject. That being said, I must agree with CF here; as much as I wish I had the budget to get a backup AR for everyone in my group, I don’t even have the budget for one of my own yet, though I plan to soon. For the time being, everyone within my group has trained with everyone else’s firearms to the point of competence, so while we wouldnt have perfect ammunition compatability, and a few too many.22s for my taste, we would have a rifle and a sidearm for every person. Again, I agree that your system is an excellent one for those with the funds, however for the rest of us, it is More important to have high quality guns thay everyone knows how to use, while gradually saving up for modern battle rifles.

16. Is the Extractor the part in the rifle or a tool?
    The artical was one that makes you think.

    Thanks

    Bob

17. Is the extractor the one in the rifle or a tool.

    Great piece it made me think.

18. Great information and many thanks for the article. I have a couple of thoughts to add…
    I know that “Pmags” are all the rage and they are wonderful magazines, but don’t discount USGI magazines – especially with the updated followers. The USGI mags have been battle proven for decades and most importantly, they are much easier to insert and remove from mag pouches than Pmags. The geometry of the Pmags make them stick and drag in my web gear. The USGI magazines slide in and out of pouches smoothly and quickly. The old trick of attaching a loop of paracord as a pull under the magazine floor plate may be useful for some shooters as well. Both the Pmags and upgraded USGI mags are as cheap as they have ever been, so get them now. It seems in states that prohibit high capacity magazines, the FFLs are having to pull the high capacity magazines and sell the rifles without a magazine or with a low capacity magazine. The FFLs end up with piles of mags that they have to ship to non-restricted states. My FFL is selling these to me at $7.00 each and I’m sure he still is making money in the process.
    I agree that Magpul furniture is great stuff. Another benefit of purchasing the Magpul pistol grip is the secure storage space in the grip. It is just large enough to locate a “boresnake” pull through and a “single serving” package of my favorite lubricant.

19. As far as handout ‘sidearms’ are concerned, I prefer revolvers for the masses and semiautos only for family members because they’ve trained with them.

    The Glock is a fine weapon, but I personally don’t like them and don’t see them being any more reliable than any other modern pistol.

    We roll with the M&P 9. Although I like the 1911 platform, I prefer 2x as many rounds.

    One thing choosing the Glock platform does allow is the selection of numerous 9mm carbines like the Keltec Sub 2000 (I think Gen 2 also works with the M&P) and various styled AR platforms and mag interchangeability is nice. I’ve got a Colt 7.5″ AR pistol with 30 round mags that also has a red dot and laser/light combo that is a lot of fun, it’s also pretty good HD/car runandgun.

    As for the revolver, .38 is just fine. Cheap and reliable.

20. Great article! Although in my experience with new shooters its much easier for them to pick up on how to shoot an Springfield XD-M than a Glock partially because of the ergonomics and definitely because of the trigger. A few months ago while I was at the local range a guy came over and shot with me with his brand new Glock 17. He was shooting a target at 7 yards and most of his shots were outside of center mass. I helped him and by the time he left every one of the shots was in center mass. I don’t say this to rag on the guy I say this because that’s the shooting level the majority of people that you’ll come across will be at. I definitely agree that Glocks are very robust pistols but so are plenty of other platforms. I’m not trying to rag on Glocks either. I’m just saying it would just be easier to have a more forgiving platform in case the help you find after SHTF is only the average Joe six pack. Plus on a budget note this year, through June 30th, they were giving anyone that bought a new Springfield pistol 4 extra magazines, a range holster, and a magazine holder!

    God Bless,

    James

    1. Springfield Armory is a terrible choice for anything because of their choice to support anti-gun legislation and politicians.

21. “All the people constitute the militia — according to the Founding Fathers. Therefore every able-bodied man has a duty under the Constitution to become part of the “well-regulated” militia, specifically to understand and perform well with the individual weapon currently issued to the regular establishment. . . . Thus one who has not qualified himself with the M-16 may not be considered to be a responsible citizen.” Retrieved from http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/rkba/Cooper_Quotes.htm

22. Another point against the piston systems is there is no industry standard on piston systems. Therefore a Colt may not be interchangeable with an Adams Arms etc. so unless you have all identically manufactured piston ARs you lose the interchangeability (mostly) of DI systems.

    1. This is an outstanding point.

       Far too many people don’t think beyond the advertising claims about the newest and greatest gun — that somehow a magic coating or a minor design tweek will eliminate the need to actually train oneself by shooting a lot of rounds — rounds that lead to wear and tear on ANY gun.

       There’s a reason the military doesn’t jump on every “New and Improved!” gun or accessory. Standardization is the only rational way to deal with maintenance and repair of any piece of machinery, when you’re dealing with multiple units of the same sort.

       For ARs that means direct impingement instead of any piston system, forged lowers, forged uppers (GI-pattern/”mil spec”), standard bolt carrier groups, etc. “Perfect is the enemy of good enough” as they say. “Perfect” is useless if it’s missing a vital piece that “good enough” will work without.

       Stock spare parts, and the tools you need to properly install them.

23. Great article and sound advice. My only issue the the 2000rds of 62gr green tip (steel core). Sure it is great to shoot thru soft armor or vehicles, but wouldn’t soft points be what you would want to use on human targets? That 62gr steel core is going to zip thru and leave a 22 cal hole, while a soft point is going to do some damage. Civilians aren’t held to the Geneva Convention US Military standards. Sure FMJ 55gr are cheaper and great for practice, but for the real-deal, wouldn’t you want a hunting bullet? I also agree 2000rds/gun is about right. Just my thoughts after using soft points on 160# deer for 3 decades… Mike

    1. It’s actually the Hague Convention not Geneva. The U.S. has never signed it, but we voluntarily comply with it. You’re right though 55g SP or open tip would be better. The green tip was developed for use in Europe against Warsaw Pact troops,who were wearing flak jackets or light body armor. We found in Iraq that it would just zip through enemy combatants with little tissue damage. Oh, also soft point are not restricted under Hague, it hollow points. The Marines are currently using an “Open tip” match round in Afghanistan, not a hollow point by the way!!! I do know the new Sig that was selected by the military must be capable of feeding hollow points. So, maybe the military is finally putting behind the craziness of FMJ only.

    2. 2000 rounds per gun is a good start…..

       I would also recommend components, primers, powder, dies for every reloadable caliber, & good presses to feed those firearms, if those 2000 rounds severely diminish due to an extended duration of necessity to use them…..

    3. M193 55 grain ball is an excellent anti-personnel load at 250m or under. Most .223 Rem hunting loads use bullets designed to expand very quickly on varmints. On people, pigs or deer they will often cause a shallow non-immediately-lethal wound while M193 FMJ ball will penetrate further before yawing and breaking apart, causing a more effective wound.

       Not all 55 grain FMJ ball is the same, even military loadings. Some has a heavy jacket designed to prevent fragmentation while yawing. Some is loaded to lower pressures and velocities, or is loaded for non-AR platforms and may not be reliable in a carbine-length AR.

       A couple of good choices are Federal’s “XM193” load and IMI’s “M193” — both use US GI-pattern 55 grain FMJ bullets that will break apart while yawing, causing more effective wounding/killing.

       The “Ammo Oracle” at ar15.com has a lot of good information. Google it.

24. Mike –

    I went down the Mini-14/30 trial many years ago. I recently relived it with a Ruger AR-10. When I called the factory seeking parts it was $300+ for Bolt and buffer spring!

    There is no parts supply that I know of for mini-14s.

    I detest being raped for magazines by Ruger.

    It is a good little platform. If it works for you, use it. I don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade – heck! At least you have a weapon (or two, or three…) vs. many who are in total sheeple status!

    Do you have a dozen though? I assembled all of my PSA AR-15s, so I know them and can work on them.

    The Mil-surp 62gr is purely for cost – I would certainly like to send better love downrange to the bad guys, but have no way to afford a MINIMUM of 2,000 rounds of softpoint for multiple guns. (If you can, send me some – LOL!!!!! That is great!) You are getting the whole point of the article – get something and incrementally improve – I don’t have 12 ARs in the rack ready to hand out yet – but I have a darn good start on it!

    Great comments and info flowing! Keep it going!

    DB

    1. DB-
       The cost of M193 rounds seems to be equal if not less that m855 green tips, so why not use those? the 55gr FMJ projectile has a better chance of yawing and fragmentation in soft tissue, making it arguably better for self defense than the 62gr rounds. Just a thought.

25. Anon –

    A ruptured case head extractor is a tool (as opposed to the extractor in the bolt face of the weapon). It is used to extract the remaining piece of the cartridge case when the bolt face extractor has torn off the head of the cartridge case. Brownell’s has them.

    DB

26. All in all I get the thrust of this article. Commonality of weapons is pretty much a good thing. However my experience with people who have had no shooting or weapons handling experience ( and even with many who have had such ) is pretty guarded. They tend to be fearful of gun handling, and are not very safe in terms of muzzle control. Now in these normal times, yes training and range time with the right instructors can do wonders. But your scenario of people showing up at your retreat in a SHTF time adds stress and immediacy to situation, with perhaps very little time for formal training. To just give them a weapon when the environment is stressfully fluid/uncertain may be a recipe for disaster. They could shoot someone in the retreat or themselves quite easily if startled. Just saying this is something to consider. There are many people out there who just don’t have the mental mindset or inclination to use firearms, so I’d say proceed with caution for sure.

27. D-5 –

    JUST GET AMMO!!!!! LOL!!!!

    As long as it reliably goes bang and you aren’t swimming, can one have too much ammo?!

    DB

28. Couldn’t have said it better. Rifle is the beginning, and it won’t get you far without web gear, mags, etc. Rifle is part if a system.

29. Bwhntr62 –

    I didn’t get that far in the article, but I never intended to give a newbie a weapon without instruction. I have taught CCW for my state for 10 years, State hunter Ed, etc.. I knew there would be ALOT of instruction hard and fast. If they are taken in to my place, I would have already made an assessment that they are stable enough to handle a weapon, but of course they tell me you just never know for sure until the exchange of kinetic pleasantries.

    DB

30. Rod –

    Maybe that is why I have two Dillon 550 presses?!

    One I keep small primer tube in (9mm & 5.56×45), the other is for large primer sizes (7.62×51, .30-06, .45 ACP).

    : )

    DB

    DB

31. I agree with your choices on firearms, but I’m having a hard time seeing why you think it’s a good idea to hand out guns to people you barely know.

32. High School Prepper –

    Awesome that you are doing what you can! My article is directed towards a somewhat “perfect”, or textbook solution. Not everyone has funds for this. Right now, myself included so I slow way down and “nibble” at the goals. A spare mag here – next month a boresnake with Cabela’s points. My intent was to give people a possible solution to a problem that they will face in the future. By cross training with what you do have, you are ahead of 97% of the sheeple watching the Kardashians on the idiot box! Keep at it!

    DB

33. Porcupine –

    I would not be trying to hand them out to total strangers. For example – I worked as a contractor at a military base nearby. If one of the retired Soldiers I worked with showed up on my doorstep I would have a person who already knows how to use a weapon competently, and whom I had gotten to know for at least one year on a contract. Who would I have to man the north window, or pull OP/LP duty? Could this former Soldier not go on a security recon patrol with me? If I had a spare AR to hand to him to use! Do you not have a brother/cousin/buddy whom you trust, but have not been able to get him to wake up and see the danger – not coming out of normalcy bias now does not mean he would be worthless to you after the schumer collides with the rotary oscillator. If it was a stranger – a doctor, or a Lon Porter as in JWR’s Patriots – then one makes the best assessment possible and makes a call. Beats trying to pull security for yourself 24/7/365. The perfect solution would be to find perfect team members before the disaster. Real life seems to be showing me that these people are “unicorns”. I will keep trying to find them, but my plan B is to have handout guns.

    Hope this helps you to see the intent of my article.

    DB

34. Thanks, Earnan – you and I are on the exact same sheet of music.

    DB

35. I think your major point is that standardization is a key point. And that Mil-spec is tried and true. I have gone with AR15’s and Colt 45ACP. The MLSU AR15 and Beretta. Son and Daughter both over 21, living at home. AR15 and Colt 45 daughter liked the Mini-14 and has yet to choose a MSA (Main Side Arm). We also have Marlin Model 60 22lr for all 4 of us – No Mags to loose and the fact that I grew up on one. Bother and his GF and 2 sons have been trained on all my weapons but he has a single 12ga. So your advice of picking up a few more lower priced AR’s hit home, My advice break protocol and tell others what I have. To ensure they purchase compatible weapons. Mags I have in abundance 1or2 a week for years amounts to a ton of AR mags. And before the hate starts on the Berretta – I pulled 60mags for 2 bucks a piece from an old friend. So I am mags for days on Berretta’s. And my family motto is handguns are for getting me to my next battle rifle! So my family is set but we need to push extended family towards similar arms. Most are in walk stage -shotguns and 22’s. And yes we have shotguns and couple of 30-60’s for hunting. A new M1A is my latest addition and again caught a break with a buddy who pop out with 15 20Rd mags for $140, 2x 4 mag pouches. M1A has SADLAK mount, LaRue tactical ring and a SWFA 16×42 Scope -set to 200yards. The LaRue quick detach allows me to throw the scope on my LE6920 AR Platform and with marking for that rifle to go to 200 yards as well. I am working on a Rem 700 for a precision rifle for son it too will have a SWFA scope. The 4 of us have tac-vests with our mags for them. And IFAK’s are being worked on. I have the list of the items that I want in them. We also use a throw IFAK – with less items, last I checked you aren’t going to insert a tube in your own throat or cath there own lungs. And we use the SWAT tourney to save money.
    All that said lets be clear a 22LR with 500 rounds will keep heads down as well as a $1700 dollar M1A! And a 12Ga with 1 solid metal on metal pump will stop a dog and it has no idea what a 12GA is. That’s defense without pulling the trigger. I also have most security figured out, its called a fence – that said I liked the 12 person plan and ours is about 25 but that is counting kids. I need more guns! But your more correct in that I need more shooters. We have a Doc, and a pharmacist but need more shooters. I like others would be very concerned about handing a “zombie” a firearm on day one and asking them to aid in securing our family/group. I would much more likely ask them to fetch firewood, retrieve water, pick berries, or burn waste or clean up. Spending some time to earn that trust. And yes I said Zombie – a term I use for anyone coming with nothing to offer and looking to take by force or guilt or pity our weapons, food, people.
    I think if a group to keep to say less than 6 rounds they will benefit say 5.56/223, 9mm,45ACP 7.62×51/308, 12Ga and of course 22LR. But if pressed to 3 it would be 5.556/223, 12Ga and 22LR and all would be rifles. I have never been in a fire fight with anyone that said “damn I wish I had a pistol in stead” – or “I wish I had more pistol mags”.

36. I was just wondering what all’ya’ll thing about the M1 Garand? I’ve got some and some extra ammo to go with them. I like them, and don’t want to sell them, but maybe I should consider it.

37. As far as the M1 Garand goes, I think it depends on where you live, your spare parts inventory how familiar you are with maintaining the rifle. I love the Garand- in fact mine is my favorite rifle. If I had to partol in grizzly infested areas, it might be my choice, but my wife and daughter would have problems lugging one around and firing one unsupported. That’s where the AR type rifle is hard to beat. AR parts are plentiful and relatively inexpensive. They are light and functional. The AR is “America’s rifle”, meaning that the odds are good that many folks will already be familiar with the workings and maintaining them. I wouldn’t say the M1 is a no go, but if I were purchasing inventory for the topic at hand, I agree with the choice of ARs and Glocks for the long haul.

    1. What parts should be aquire for ab M1 Garand?

38. Anon –

    I actually started the evolution of the handout gun with CMP Garands. (Still a screaming deal – you just may not be an American if you do not have a CMP Garand – LOL!!!!) One day it finally seeped through my thick cranial cavity that most people outside of in-shape real Soldier types cannot manhandle a Garand. They are a bit long for CQB – they are a bit problematic to mount optics to – the solution there is to get an Ultimak scout rail which replaces the handguard (a non-permanent modification) – but they will deal with bad guys in an authoritative manner. You can put a red dot on the scout rail, or Leupold scout scope. Vortex and Burris also make 2-7x long eye relief scopes, but I have not been able to buy and try these yet.

    Olongapo outfitters makes 12 en-bloc shingles for the Garand. They also make molle pouches.

    If you do ALOT of PT and are a moose, then the Garand could be a great platform for a hand-out gun. Remember though – Uncle Sam is not there to provide you with en-blocs – when they eject they are probably lost. HAVE A TON OF THEM!

    DB

39. USGI EXTRACTORS are tough to come by – get any you find!

    Springs – recoil, ejector, extractor

    Firing Pin

    Pins

    Replacement front sight assembly

    If you have some extra cash – rear sight parts, trigger assembly complete

    EN BLOCS! EN BLOCS! EN BLOCS!

40. As far as spare parts, a call to Fulton Armory would be wise. A reputable company like that would steer you right. I would agree that large amounts of en-block clips would be a must, along with springs and maybe an extra bolt assembly. All I have parts wise for mine is an extra recoil rod spring (and hundreds of clips). The old GIs who ran them through years of war are fast disappearing, so reaching out to the pros who specialize in them is important.

41. I want to start with saying that the OP has pretty much nailed down the armory aspect of the issue, Bravo!

    I would ask myself a question, aside from the soldier who turns up who else should be carrying or emptying 8 or 9 mags? I think these untrained folks should be equipped more like VC. One rifle and a couple of mags. I don’t think they’re going to hit much so I don’t think I want them blasting through a case of ammo the first time some critter startles them. That’s just my take, I think the “turn ups” will have to serve as decoys and deterrents until they prove themselves.

    Part two but still gear related, camouflage, I’m thinking the “turn ups” will show up in civies. A Rubbermaid bin with army navy store surplus camouflage shirts that will fit over their weather appropriate civilian attire could pay for itself fast. I’m grabbing oversize gear, nothing smaller than XL, the 2x and 3x may look like a poncho on some folks but that just covers a little more of them. The oversize shirt can be adjusted for with a duty belt or even some cordage. Pants on the other hand are to personalized to be effectively stocked. If the “turn ups” have to dirty up their pants to blend in then so be it.

    I’m not saying what you are proposing is flawed but it’s probably going to be premature depending on who shows up.

42. Jack –

    I understand your point about the new guy/gal and blasting away/wasting ammo. Two things to mix into this situation – after WWII, SLA Marshall interviewed US infantry combat veterans to determine what we did right and did wrong. I don’t recall the exact figures, but it was something like only 10% of US infantrymen in combat actually fired their weapons!!!! The ARs that I have as handout guns are all semi-auto, so no danger of mad magazine dumps. I think the real challenge, as the Army found, was to get humans to fire their weapon and take another human’s life.

    My intent would be to IMMEDIATELY begin teaching the new guy/gal how to SAFELY and competently handle their handout gun, so if given a week this issue should begin melting away. This drives the need to have Ruger 10/22s and LOTS of .22LR ammo, as well as even airguns and pellets to teach basic rifle marksmanship. Then step them up to the AR – you still need to have ammo left to fight with after training the person! 10,000 rounds per rifle would not be crazy to stockpile.

    Max Velocity recently penned an article on the train of thought that you have put on the table – basically his idea was to carry enough to be effective, but not so much that you are crushed by the weight of your gear/plates/ammo. Yes, 3-4 mags is probably going to be the limit of what slighter built/out of shape people can effectively carry and use. However – I will begin correcting this upon their arrival – PT is part of the life at my place.

    Next to consider – defending the homestead does not entail schlepping the numerous mags on 3-4 day patrols (initially – eventually one would pre-emptively want to patrol your surrounding area) – if the newer guy/gal is sitting behind a window sill, then having 10 mags is not a big deal at all. Remember – mags will get dropped/lost. The feed lips are the most delicate part of magazine. The magazine is the weakest link in the weapons system, so when I get a new AR, I automatically get 10 new PMAGs for the carbine. I start feeling warm and fuzzy when I have 24 for each carbine. Worst case, I have money in the bank to trade later. (During gun ban scare periods, PMAGs are used as currency by some in the weapons world.)

    To your tactical clothing point – You are dead on! Old sets of BDUs are durable work clothes. The only downside to them is that ANYONE can have a set, so if your group is wearing BDUs, a bad guy can get into your perimeter unnoticed for a time by wearing BDUs.

    Boots of all sizes are also something to stock up on in the same manner. Sturdy belts are prudent to collect. Like it or not, even socks and underwear from Thrift stores will be needed. If your people have none and are going commando, they will be raw and very unhappy in short order. Then they become distracted and are not alert/observant. The Army kids around about “snivel gear”, but a shivering Soldier is not worried about the perimeter – he is just focused on wanting to be warm. Same for someone whose groin is raw from rubbing against the BDU material. I would guess that a lady would VERY much appreciate at least a t-shirt between her nipples and the BDU top. Can’t say as I have the expertise to deal with the stocking of bras, but I think you can see the issue here.

    You are using your noggin’ and thinking things through – keep at it – great job!

    DB

43. Thanks DB, I’d say we’re pretty much on the same page we just have different families. I’ve only got three shooters and the rest of the lot is baggage until they’re trained up. Speaking of trained, you touched on something I mulled over but didn’t solve while I was writing yesterday – Quiet Training. The locals will know where I am whether I run shooting drills or not but locals aren’t the only people in the world. I need to lay in some more quiet shooting gear for the learning curve period. Thanks for jogging my memory and providing a course of action.

44. : )

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