Letter Re: Gas Masks, Fire, and Chlorine Gas

Jim,
Thank you for your hard work on maintaining the SurvivalBlog. I was first introduced to survival ideas in the late 1990s when I read your novel “TEOTWAWKI” (I read it again when it was [expanded and] re-published as “Patriots”.) I truly appreciate the time and effort you spend promoting a self-reliant way of life. I am an Air Force NBC instructor (have been for about 8 years now) and I am concerned that recent posts on your web site will lead people to believe that military gas masks will protect them from industrial chemical releases. Military masks (M17, M40, M45, MCU-2 series, and others) are designed for battlefield concentrations of chemical agents. Battlefield concentrations of chemical agents are expected to be lower than those that result from industrial releases. These masks are not designed to protect the wearer from toxic industrial materials including chlorine. The Army Technical Manuals (TMs.) and Air Force Technical Orders (TOs) for masks using the C2A1 canister all contain warnings about the limitations of the C2A1 canisters.
Here is an excerpt from the MCU-2 technical order dated 24 June 2004 (about a decade after the introduction of the C2A1 canister):
“WARNING. The MCU-2 Series mask is not an authorized respiratory device for industrial chemical use. The canister will not protect against ammonia or carbon monoxide, and the mask is not effective in confined spaces where there is not enough oxygen in the air to support life.” Here is an excerpt from Air Force Manual 10-100 ,dated 1 June 2004:
“The mask is ineffective in industrial chemical environments such as ammonia or chlorine spills, or within carbon monoxide atmospheres.” I realize that some companies (Scott and 3M) manufacture filters that do protect against chlorine and are compatible with the threads on most military masks; however, the military canisters do not provide this level of filtration. It is important that people know the capabilities and limitations of any protective equipment prior to using it. Thanks again for your work on SurvivalBlog. I hope that this information is helpful. Thank you. – Scott

The Memsahib’s Quote of the Day:

“It’s in our fallen, sinful nature for tyrants to rise up in every nation. And unfortunately, it’s also in our nature that the vast majority in every nation is either too stupid or too apathetic to do anything about it until the tyrants have put up their barbed wire and spilled a lot of blood.” – James Wesley, Rawles, Patriots: Surviving the Coming Collapse

Note From JWR:

When you write your obligatory Christmas card insert “brag letter” this year, please mention that you’ve been reading SurvivalBlog. If you send an electronic version, it would be greatly appreciated if you’d include a SurvivalBlog link logo or link text. Every bit of publicity helps. (Our goal is to double the SurvivalBlog readership in 2007.) Thanks!

Two Letters Re: Sources for Plumbed-In Reserve Water Tanks?

Jim,
The black poly tanks ($600 for a 1,550 gallon tank) are better than the clean septic tanks that you mentioned because not only are they buriable, but the black poly is UV-proof and algae will not grow in the black tanks. I use one on top of the ground to supplement the hot water supplied by the water heater. If you can’t bury the tank, then I recommend setting it on the surface and build a protective wall around the tank with native rock and mortar. This will [absorb or] turn away bullets in case your enemies decide to try to deny you water. The wall can also insulate the tank against a fire set by an enemy. You can get these tanks at any feed store, or at a farm and ranch supply store. Regards, L.R. (of SurvivingTheDayAfter@yahoogroups.com)

 

Jim,
I hate to dispute your advice about using plastic septic tanks for water storage but I think you’re in error here. These plastic tanks are not designed to hold water and many of them have pinhole leaks (that can cause you a world of trouble in the long run). Additionally,if the tanks are buried, you have to remember that they are meant to be kept filled lest they be collapsed by the inward pressure of the surrounding earth (a little known fact is that pumped [empty] septic tanks should never be left empty) and this is particularly true if buried in heavy clay soils or driven over by vehicles. Here in Hawaii we just had a 6.7 magnitude earthquake. Among the hardest hit were those of us who live “off grid” (ironically) as many water tanks collapsed and virtually everybody had problems with damage to piping connections (which are difficult to make earthquake-proof.. Water supply should be one of the most engineered aspect of house construction, and this goes double for survivalists who are counting on independent systems to keep their families alive. The best book, hands down, for calculating what you need is “Water Storage” by Art Ludwig (who, by the way, makes learning ferrocement tank making about as easy as it will ever get.) Your local library likely has a copy, read it and save yourself a ton of money and two tons of frustration caused by an ill-conceived water system! – Hawaii K.

JWR Replies: Thanks for your input. I recommend that any buried poly tank be kept full, regardless of its design or its originally intended use. As for earthquakes, I’ve read that folks in Hawaii mostly had failures of rainwater catchment tanks, both aboveground and underground, and of both concrete and a plastic construction. The only tanks that at seemed to fare better than most were aboveground galvanized steel water tanks. But even for those that kept their integrity, many suffered from cracked water pipes and/or water pipe connections. (So be sure to buy plenty of spare copper or PVC pipe, fittings, purple primer, pipe cement, et cetera.) As for potential pinholes or larger leaks, when you buy any water tank, you should make sure that it is guaranteed against leaks before making the purchase, and definitely do an above-ground water fill test before burying it.

Two Letters Re: Gas Masks, Fire, and Chlorine Gas

1

Jim:
Just something I would really like to beat to death, and that’s Chlorine, Fires and Gas masks. I just keep getting this really creepy feeling that there are a lot of folks out there that aren’t clued in on the limitations of gas masks and may kill themselves.
First:, grass fires, forest fires and house fires.
A gas mask will keep you from choking on the fumes and stop your eyes from watering but it will kill you!
The mask will stop the particulate matter that irritates your eyes, throat and lungs but it will not make oxygen where there is none, like in the fires described above, and you will suffocate! You’ll pass out
Second, chlorine is a particularly nasty product. Most of the normal ABC, NBC, and biowarfare filters will trap a lot of nasty stuff in the activated charcoal granules in the filter. BUT MOST WILL NOT STOP CHLORINE! Chlorine requires a special filter. If you have masks and you anticipate Chlorine then get the right filter!
Okay, I feel better. It was this part from today’s post that triggered me: “Unfortunately, the chlorine gas saturation level in the area was too high and most vehicles would not start. Many families perished in their cars. Gas masks are great idea if you have to walk out.” If they had tried to walk out without a chlorine filter on their mask, they would have died anyway. I’ve seen Chlorine deaths and it’s not pretty. Thanks for letting me vent. Best Regards, – The Army Aviator

JWR Replies: Thanks for mentioning the importance of gas mask filter selection! You are right that most “typical” masks sold to civilians do not protect against chlorine. For example, the ubiquitous “green ring” cheek filters for U.S. M17 series masks do not protect against chlorine. However, the current NATO issue C2A1 filter canisters (which are standard issue for M40 series masks) do protect against chlorine. SurvivalBlog readers that live near train tracks or a chemical plant should do their homework before they buy.
And, as you pointed out, both the gas concentration level and the available oxygen level are both crucial issues, regardless of the filter used. How much oxygen? OSHA defines a “safe” oxygen level for mine workers as 19.5%, or higher. With a web search, I found the following on a forestry web site: “A fire consumes the oxygen essential to human survival. During a fire, the normal level of oxygen in the air (about 21%) drops rapidly. If the level drops below 17%, clear thinking and muscle control become difficult. When the oxygen level in the air drops between 6% and 10%, breathing stops, and after four to six minutes without oxygen, brain death occurs.”]

 

James:
I have worked US Air Force NBC for several years and civilian law enforcement. I have read with interest the information regarding hazardous materials spills by the SurvivalBlog reader in North Carolina. I was concerned about the advice about using gas masks to protect yourself and family. Toxic Industrial Materials are referred to as TIMs. The common gas masks the many individuals have (Israeli, US surplus M-17s, MCU 2A/P) are only filters. They will stop many chemicals, but they will not provide oxygen. I know that this is understood by most readers but if this prevents one person from going into a cloud of methyl-ethyl-kill-you then it was worth posting. If there is enough chlorine concentration in the air to prevent a car from starting then a mask will not protect you. I do not remember the chemical but I saw a video of two US Army Chemical Corps troops checking what appeared to be a large propane tank in Iraq or Afghanistan.
This was a real incident but not covered by the media. It was being videoed by another troop. They had their sampling equipment at the ready. They opened the tank and within seconds the were on the ground and died. Was it some kind of super warfare agent? No, it was an industrial chemical. (The name escapes me.)
If you are dealing with an unknown TIM, you need a self contained breathing apparatus like firefighters wear. Otherwise, take the safe room approach and seal your self in. Hopefully they will get the leak sealed off and it will dissipate before you run out of air. A HEPA filter will not safely ventilate a safe room when TIMs are involved. A mask and a HEPA filter will protect you from bio agents and the charcoal elements will protect from warfare chemicals but TIMS, depending on what they are can be a different story. The Department of transportation puts out
the hazmat guide, usually yellow that describes most of the truck placards and different chemicals. (Even war agents.) The guide has a cross reference including what is needed to protect you. It has other info as well. My buddy who also works military NBC plays a game on the road with his kids. They each have a copy and race to see who can figure out what the placarded trucks are carrying first. I haven’t done that with my kids yet. Regards, – Nightshift in Mississippi

Odds ‘n Sods:

Frequent content contributor (and top notch novelist) Michael Z. Williamson mentioned two interesting articles posted over at the Box O’ Truth web site: New tests on pistol shotshells, and will school books stop bullets? (To explain: A candidate for the office of Texas state superintendent of schools recently said that he wants to distribute thick used textbooks to students so they can shield themselves from school shooters.)

   o o o

London Underground contact surfaces to get anti-flu disinfectant silver spray.

   o o o

There is currently an interesting thread about walking sticks/staves over at The Claire Files. Yes, they are multipurpose, but as we’ve discussed before on SurvivalBlog, their most important use is self defense.

Jim’s Quote of the Day:

"Freedom isn’t purchased or held indefinitely, it’s more like a loan that’s never paid off. The “payment” is constant vigilance against government encroachment; by our grandfathers, our fathers, and us. If the payments are ignored, the penalty will be collected in blood from our sons and daughters." – Jim Howard, 2003

Notes From JWR:

You may have noticed that the blog page was unavailable for several hours last night. It was at temporary problem at the ISP’s server. (Which is usually rock solid.) It is back up and running this morning. Sorry about the inconvenience.
If you know of any potential advertisers for SurvivalBlog, please contact them and encourage them to sign up for a banner ad. Our advertising rates are dirt cheap. Be advised that we sell ad space only to advertisers that offer top quality products and services.

Letter Re: The Apex, North Carolina Fire

A quick comment regarding the Apex fire story suggestions. In Northwest Florida many years ago several chlorine rail cars derailed and leaked in the middle of the night. Residents close to the derailment tried to escape the harmful fumes
by getting in their cars and driving off. Unfortunately, the chlorine gas saturation level in the area was too high and most vehicles would not start. Many families perished in their cars. Gas masks are great idea if you have to walk out. Probably the next best thing is to have a ready response kit that will seal openings, doors and windows if you live near a processing plant or railroad and you can’t effectively escape in a moments notice. Sometimes the window of opportunity to escape opens and closes quickly, even before you are ready to bug out. Awareness of the prevailing winds in relationship to your
home helps also.
Thanks for letting me send you my two cents. There are great ideas out there from all sources coming into SurvivalBlog…and the best thing is how everyone responds to other peoples’ ideas if they see a potential weakness or flaw. The comments are never mean-spirited and everyone benefits from from the multiple angles of viewpoints – drawing on what is best for their own family. Thanks, – “M” in the New Orleans area.

Letter Re: Source for AAA to D Cell Battery Upsizers/Adapters

Jim,
I trust all is well with you and yours. I recently found a source for a battery adapter. There are a lot of products that will take one AA cell and make a D cell battery.
I found somebody makes an adapter that uses two size AA cells to make a D cell battery. (Twice as much battery life.) I’ve even seen a reference to some adapters that use three AA batteries. (That would be neat.) I recently received and tested C cell and D cell upsizers. The C cell is the common type, one AA battery makes one C cell. The D cells were the special part. Two AA cells make one D cell.
Nicely done product. They aren’t a cast iron product built for the centuries but they are well made and they were priced right. With two NiMH AA batteries of high capacity, you have a useful D cell equivalent. E-mail “Kevin Ko” <kevin@kevinko.ca> to get these adapters. BTW, he takes PayPal.

You know, I’ve got a ton of the real high cap NiMH AAs and this sure makes sense. And it’s your fault! Your recent SurvivalBlog benefit auction got me to pull out my Victoreen [fallout] meters and check them and I got to wondering about D cells. Thanks and Best Regards, – The Army Aviator

JWR Replies: Thanks for sharing the tip on the source for those adapters. I really like the new generation 2600 mil amp hour capacity AA NiMH batteries. The only problem is that The Memsahib and our #1 Son have monopolized them for use in their digital cameras. Once the price drops a bit more I think that I’ll buy myself a bulk pack.

Jim’s Quote of the Day:

“So you think that money is the root of all evil? Money is a tool of exchange, which can’t exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil? . …Not an ocean of tears nor all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor… Or did you say it’s the love of money that’s the root of all evil? To love a thing is to know and love it’s nature. To love money is to know and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men.” Ayn Rand, in a Francisco d’Anconia monologue, in Atlas Shrugged, 1957

Notes from JWR:

Wow! Our unique visits counter just passed the 3?4 million mark. Thanks for making SurvivalBlog such a great success!

Because I will be traveling on behalf of a consulting client, I will not be taking any new mail orders from October 24th to November 8th. Thanks for your patience. But of course during this time I will still be making my daily blog posts. (I have never missed a day!)

Two Letters Re: Advice on Ammunition and Precious Metals for Barter?

Jim,
I read your post of 10/15 about barter items and the problems with fake gold coins. You wrote: “The other major problem with using gold coins for survival barter, regardless of their weight, is that they will be immediately suspect as counterfeit by the individual on the other side of the table.”

You are quite correct, but an easy and affordable solution is available. Please note that I am not a salesman for this product nor affiliated with the company in any way. I am simply someone who has been working on preparedness for 40 years and have found this product valuable.

There is a fake gold coin detection product made by Fisch Instruments. The detector, detectors really, consist of plastic fulcrums that measure the diameter, thickness, and weight of a coin. Because of gold’s unique properties, no coin can pass these three tests and be a counterfeit. (Okay, okay, they could be made out of platinum alloy or palladium, but that doesn’t seem too probable). I have had a set of these detectors for about 25 years. I am not a coin collector, I just have them in case I find myself being presented gold coins for payment for food or ammo.

I would not normally make much noise about this except the owner is closing down the business. At some point in the future, these will not be available any longer. For less money than a cheap shotgun, your readers could add to their arsenal of tools for not getting cheated is some future the normal economy has become discombobulated.

 

Mr. R.:
In response to Monsieur Anon’s comments I appreciate that gold would not be the exchange medium of choice in most WTSHTF scenarios, however, let’s not overlook the tremendous versatility of gold as a preservation of wealth for most survival situations that one would plan for. This is not mere speculation either. There is an enormous wealth (sorry!) of history supporting this position.

Gold had value before, during and after the Roman Empire. Gold had value before, during and after WWII, regardless of the country you were in. No matter what the situation (a major war, a local disaster, a government collapse, you name it) those that could dig up 20 oz of gold after the event would be better off than those that could not. Gold has maintained its worth over time. In 1900 1oz of gold was worth around $20 which was enough to buy a good suit. Today 1 oz of gold is worth around $600 and it would still buy a good suit. Okay, I didn’t exactly appreciate much but the intrinsic value was preserved. As we all know, the $20 cash did not fair as well. I don’t think the suit bought 106 years ago would have faired much better.

I can’t think of any disaster scenario where 20 ounces of gold wouldn’t be an asset. After all, you can carry 20 Krugerrands in your bug out bag (BOB) and that may be the only thing that you have between you and your family controlling your own destiny and becoming refugees. $12,000 worth of .22 ammo wouldn’t be quite so portable. It’s also easier to hide $12,000 of gold than it is to hide your other hard assets. Some of those assets may not be quite so hard after all, when looters and the government have finished.

Assuming you have first made appropriate preparations for protection, shelter, water and food, I believe there are many more survival scenarios where owning some gold coins would be more advantageous than not. IMHO, evaluating gold coins for barter in a survival scenario is like evaluating the worth of your Model 1911 pistol for deer hunting – great tool/wrong job! – Dave

JWR Replies: You are absolutely right that gold does have a place in preparedness planning. While it is suboptimal for post-TEOTWAWKI survival barter (for the reasons previously stated), it is an ideal store of wealth with “grab it and go” portability, such as in cross-border refugee situations. Silver is roughly 50 times heavier and bulkier per dollar’s worth, and hence too heavy for most investors to carry in their luggage. To illustrate my point: I recently accompanied a consulting client to both a coin show and a coin shop, to liquidate gold and silver holdings to generate cash for an upcoming retreat property purchase. In just four hours at the show the client sold $147,000 worth of gold–a mixture of slabbed (PCGS and NGC encapsulated ) mint state numismatic coins and bullion coins. (The latter were nearly all 1 ounce Krugerrands and American Eagles.) These all fit easily in a battered old black plastic Samsonite briefcase. It was heavy, but still quite portable and discreet. What a contrast the next day when we went to a coin shop to sell the silver, consisting of 54 Englehard 100 ounce bullion bars (about 385 pounds!), and nearly three full $1,000 face value bags of pre-1965 U.S. coinage. A $1,000 silver bag weighs 55 pounds. Toting the silver into the shop took three very heavy dolly (hand truck) loads, during which time we were in full public gaze. When we were unloading and stacking the bullion bars, (“clank!, clank!”), discretion was difficult. Despite its much greater weight and bulk, the sale of the silver generated less than $100,000.

As you correctly pointed out, gold is also useful as “time machine” for preserving one’s wealth from one side of a war or a currency crisis to the other. (When one’s savings would otherwise be wiped out.) To be ready for all eventualities, I recommend investing in both silver and gold. Each has it strengths for different situations. In my estimation, the priority of investing should be 1.) Retreat land and and core logistics (“Beans, bullets and band-aids “), then 2.) Silver dimes and/or quarters for barter, and then, finally, 3.) Gold bullion, in nothing larger than one ounce coins. You are right that “many more survival scenarios where owning some gold coins would be more advantageous than not.” But of course setting priorities is important.