Letter Re: Why Is Utah Not in the American Redoubt?

All your points regarding Utah being unsuitable [for inclusion as an American Redoubt state] are well taken, I would add only a few items and clarify one statement;

The plain fact is the Mormon [LDS] church controls the political and economic conditions within the state and they have always wanted to expand that control to a national level. The majority follow (in my view) a completely wrong religious doctrine, in that they practice the corporate teachings of their church, which has very little to do with the Bible. I would also say when push comes to shove 99.9% of the elected officials will do exactly what the gray suits at the [LDS] temple in Salt Lake City tell them to do.

I, not being a native [to the state] nor a Mormon, have found there is what I call The Mormon Ceiling in employment here, meaning most upper level and higher paying jobs are very difficult to come by and seem reserved for those of a proper standing [within the LDS Church.] Especially in the public service jobs (local and state government) there is only so far up the ladder that a non-member can go. I have noted that in difficult times the employees let go are predominantly not members of the mormon church in both the private and public sectors. In fact are still some cities that actually require a temple recommend to even get an interview (all in the shadows of course).

To be perfectly blunt, given the class system ingrained in Utah society and even within their own religion, Utah is not a good choice for survival unless you become a cog in their system, but even then you will be treated as an outsider.

My observation is the people here are also pretty racist. It seems that it may be due to ignorance, lack of contact with other races and brainwashing from those very same powers that be. Sadly, they are blissfully unaware of it, denying it vehemently, even after it is proven to them.

The error I noted is (unless the law has changed in the last year since receiving a CCL permit) that Utah residents can open carry anywhere in the state as long as it takes two mechanical actions to fire the weapon. [Further, anyone carrying a gun] must leave a private business or home if asked and apparently schools, churches and public buildings are weapons free areas or free fire zones as some call them.

I have visited quite a few parts of the state and besides very small pockets of Utah that have [favorable] microclimates, most of the state is not viable in a total collapse, although this is probably true in most any [other western] state. Given what I have observed and living here for the last 20 or so years as a Lutheran, I can honestly say a move to the north west of here, would be a prudent choice for long term survival. Otherwise it is a decent place to live. I just wish we had continued north years ago. – Jordan

JWR Replies: Thanks for mentioning the clarification on open carry in Utah.

The folks at US Conceal and Carry posted these details on Utah’s strange open carry law:

“Utah allows for open carry of unloaded firearms without a concealed firearm permit. “Unloaded” as it applies here, means that there is no round in the firing position, and the firearm is at least two “mechanical actions” from firing. As carrying the firearm with the chamber empty, but with a full magazine, meets this definition (the handler must chamber a round, and then pull the trigger), this is a common work around for Utah residents who do not wish to acquire a permit. Without the permit, the [unloaded] firearm must be clearly visible.

(Emphasis added.)

It is sad that open carry of fully loaded guns without a permit is not legal in Utah.  Unless you have a CCW permit, you cannot legally openly carry a loaded revolver or an autopistol with a cartridge in the chamber. The alternative, Condition 3 carry (that is, carry with an empty chamber–commonly called Israeli Carry), is slower and cumbersome, since it requires two hands to ready the gun for firing. If you have only one hand available (for instance when grappling, or when injured), then you may end up dead.

For anyone who lives in Utah without a CCW permit but who wishes to open carry, I recommend that you skip carrying revolvers altogether. (They are too slow to load, even with a speedloader.) Also skip carrying a Glock (or a non-thumb safety version of the S&W M&P autopistol), because without an external safety lever they probably wouldn’t meet the “two mechanical actions” test of the Utah law. For open carry of other autopistols, be sure to practice a lot in drawing and slide rack chambering from Condition 3 (“Israeli”) Carry.

As for Mormon politics and clannishness in Utah, I don’t consider that a major issue or impediment for anyone who is considering relocation to Utah or to southern Idaho. I’ve observed that there are are lots of non-Mormon small towns throughout the United States where newcomers get the cold shoulder socially, and where there is a de facto hiring preference for locals. That is just basic social dynamics and the We/They Paradigm in action. To illustrate: I’ve been a landowner living year-round in The Unnamed Western State for eight years, and faithfully attending the same local church for all of that time. But I’m still considered a relative newcomer. Many of my neighbors have lived here for three or four generations. So I can’t expect to be “instantly integrated.” That is just the way it is.

As for LDS doctrine, I’d rather not open that bucket of worms in detail in this venue. That would go far beyond the scope of SurvivalBlog’s raison d’être. Just suffice it to say that I have some irreconcilable doctrinal differences with the LDS Church. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t get along with Mormons, socially. I’ve met some fine individuals who are Mormons.

For anyone who is curious about LDS doctrine, I would recommend that you read both the LDS Doctrine and Covenants tome (available at almost any used book store and also available on-line) and a great evidential book by an outsider, titled Letters to a Mormon Elder. I find the history of changes to LDS doctrine over the years is fascinating, just in itself.

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