Dear Mr. Latimer,
I became a prepper last year and a Christian the year before. I am currently working through various issues of my faith, and your website has worked very well for helping both preparedness planning and my faith. I’m in my junior year of college, pursuing a teaching license. I’d prefer to teach private school, but if God calls me to teach in a public school I’ll do it and hopefully do some good there. To be brief, my question is whether or not a Christian should, in good conscience, violate laws banning weapons for self defense in schools.
I know Romans 13 orders us to obey the laws of our nation, but does that apply when the laws violate the 2nd Amendment, which I would view as being the higher law of the land? I can understand this verse being applied to taxes and such, along with smaller things like speed limits and other matters, but should I apply it to defending myself and my students as well? Thank you very much and God bless. Merry Christmas! – E.B.
HJL’s Comment:
The Bible has very little to say about dealing with a secular government. When it does talk about it, it is usually within the context of finances (Give unto Cesar…) or God’s punishment. We are expected to be good citizens because our faith demands moral decisions based upon the ethics that God lays out. Our citizenship is first with the Kingdom of God, though we participate in the worldly governments because they have direct bearing upon our lives. When there is a conflict between the two, we choose the heavenly kingdom without hesitation.
Romans 13
That being said, Romans 13 is probably one of the most misquoted scriptures that I know of. We must always look at the context of scripture because pulling it out of context is an easy way to get bad theology. Romans 12 is about the congregation and how they are to deal with each other. It is about the Body of Christ, and as individuals we all have our separate parts to play. Romans 14 is also about how believers interact with each other within the congregation, including the concept to not judge each other’s salvation over trivial things.
Why, in the middle of that conversation, would Paul suddenly start talking about obedience to a secular government? No, Romans 13 is about being submissive to church government and church discipline. The whole thing is about how Christians interrelate to each other, not how we relate to a secular government.
Ordained
While God can and does use secular governments to bring about judgment upon a disobedient people, He does not ordain sinful men to positions of authority. God does not ordain a secular government. He does, however, ordain church government and those who have been ordained speak with God’s authority. (Note that I’m talking about those who have been ordained by God, not those who have been through a seminary’s ordination process. You’ll know the difference because those ordained by God speak with wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. Those ordained by man speak only with knowledge, and usually not too much of that.)
Consequences
As to your question, SurvivalBlog cannot make any recommendation. Only you can make the determination. If you choose to carry when it is against the law, there will be consequences if you are caught. God does not often relieve us of consequences to our decisions. There are two risks that I can see:
- If an incident occurs and your concealed carry saves lives, you will still probably face charges and your career as a teacher will be over, at a minimum. You might even go to jail for a long time. (But at least you are alive, as is anyone you saved.)
- You may get caught and face those same consequences without the reward of having saved lives. Speaking as a teacher of high school students for eight years, I can tell you that there is very little that escapes the attention of students, and all it takes is one child to notice your illegal behavior and end your career.
Civil Disobedience
Civil disobedience has long been a part of U.S. history, but just because you stand for what you believe is no guarantee that you will be released from the consequences of breaking the law. Only you can make the determination of what your convictions are and whether you are willing to face the consequences of such a decision.
While SurvivalBlog cannot legally advise you, as a city public high school teacher of 17 years, I would like to advise you to NOT carry a firearm in a school for the reasons already outlined. Not only will you be fired, but more than likely your teaching license will be revoked as well. What job will you get then? All your college training and expense will be for nothing. In New York, it is illegal to have weapons on school grounds, so I cannot even leave a firearm in my vehicle in the parking lot!
The best you can do is try to plan ahead. Is your classroom on the first floor or third, is escape from a window an option? It seems comical, but I keep a bag of marbles in my desk drawer. It will not stop a shooter, but I can scatter them in the hall and it might give me time to get out my windows to safety. I always carry a pointed roller pen in my pocket. It is not a knife, but can stab easily if necessary. You can’t plan for every event, but if you have a plan for a few, you will be caught off guard much less.
And yet you stay in that why why why…
In my case, because I fell that I was called to, and being a science teacher, I had a few more ‘multipurpose’ tools in my tool chest and prepared accordingly, but never carried a firearm at work.
I worked in the local school district for 5 years and yes the kids notice everything. A firearm is the best choice in self defense, but there are other ways to defend yourself without breaking the laws. Find some of those ways, train with them and pray. In addition to that think outside the box. The area I worked has several issues that I had to address. I planned routes out and places to go to barricade myself and as many people as possible. Was is a perfect answer, of course not. I also kept mace in my pocket, wasp spray withing a couple of steps and had other weapons (decorations/tools in my area) that I would use as a last resort. I just made the best of the situation that I could. Tough decision to make. Prayer for guidance is the best answer. My decision was to get out of the situation and move on to someplace I could carry. Thank you for as least being aware of the danger “safe zones” put our children in. Prayers for your decision.
I had a history teacher in school, he had decorations on the walls above the chalk boards. Native American decorations. The school really couldn’t call them into question because they were relevant to the class. Granted this was 35yrs ago, but I think with the politically correct people in society now days. You still could get away with useful decorations.
[[[Native American decorations]]]
Very interesting…I do wonder what would be thought of that…ahem…them…..today.
If you were a Native American you could almost dare them to say something….especially if the display was the weapons carried at the Battle of the Greasy Grass…..
I carry a Maxpedition (maxpedition dot com) shoulder bag (several sizes, styles, and colors available), and use it as my “turse” (tactical purse). As well as carrying my cash, “plastic” and checkbooks, my kindle, and various reading and reference literature (pocket Constitution), I also use it to carry my gun, and two extra magazines. And no one knows.
The only place I would not carry would be beyond the magnetic security gates at the airport, and similar places (state and FedGov buildings).
Remember, it’s called “concealed” carry for a reason. Tell NO ONE. Trust NO ONE.
For a take on this exact scenario pick up “Day of Wrath” by William Forstchen , the author of “One Second After” It is a short and quick read. It deals with a teacher who decides to carry in school. It is a pretty scary and thought provoking book. Available here: https://www.amazon.com/Day-Wrath-William-R-Forstchen-ebook/dp/B00MU1NNRO/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1514474252&sr=1-1&keywords=day+of+wrath+by+william+r.+forstchen
Jim L: Day of Wrath was one of the things that helped with my decision to leave the school environment. Excellent book. The subject matter made it hard to read, but impossible to put down.
Can I hear an Amen! Reading ‘Day of Wrath’ should put to rest any argument on this subject.
Of course we homeschooling families have taken individual responsibility to provide security for our children.
If the same public school refused to let you pray, or have a bible or wear a cross, or mention Jesus in class would you take the job? Would you disobey there? These are real and common bans.
I don’t know what your subject is but will you teach Darwin, or socialism, or how the USA is a racist country, or the LGBTQ curriculum?
I would worry more about those than firearms, but first see if you can visibly be a Christian in that school and then worry about weapons.
Also in this case something like pepper spray might get in under the wire.
I think you might do better trying to do some kind of homeschooling help. The public schools are generally demonic indoctrination centers anyway, and one teacher usually can’t change that. Christian parents should find a private school or homeschool.
At the risk of preaching to the choir …
If you are aware of this issue, educate your fellow citizens and change the law. Several states allow concealed carry in schools and it is not a problem. For those who doubt and object, have them watch the video at fastersaveslives.org and do some serious investigation of the real costs and benefits of their policy positions.
Most people cannot handle even contemplating the horrors that could be visited on our schools. For those who can, have them read about Beslan, Russia; Peshwar, Pakistan; and the countless school attacks in Nigeria and other African countries.
We need our fellow citizens to stop being so afraid to look at the problem that they mentally cannot function. Willful blindness is not a successful strategy. We need to help everyone see as much of the reality as they can handle. We also need them to take as much action as they are capable. If we can get everyone who is afraid to take a first aid class (basic first aid or a ‘stop the bleed’ course), those who are more aware to add a tourniquet and a pressure bandage to their car and work kits, and those who understand to advocate for school carry we will change our culture substantially for the better.
Beslan:
Terror at Beslan by John Giduck
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege
Peshwar:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30491435
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/peshawar-school-massacre-girl-hating-taliban-attack-1000-un-islamic-pakistan-schools-last-1479821
Africa:
search “school attacks in africa” and stand back
Don’t forget to add one or two packages of ‘Quick Clot’ to that trauma response kit.
I do understand that your question was primary theological in nature. And I feel that Hugh answered it in that regard. About the legal side of it.
The Constitution is the law of the land. The second amendment is a part of it. I recommend Kris Anne Hall’s videos about the genealogy of the constitution to gain good understanding of why the second amendment is in the constitution. The legislature is the only body in either the state or the federal that can make laws of any kind, and even if they do make laws, if those laws violate the constitution, they are null and void, meaning they need to be ignored by we the people. We as a nation must demand that the constitution be followed.
That said, would I carry a gun in public school if I was a teacher there? Answer: I would not be a teacher there. It is a violation of my constitutional rights. I would seek a position in a private school that does allow me to carry.
if you do carry be prepared for the consequences
which will come sooner or later…
I got a locking gun box with locking cable secured in my vehicle.
Maybe that would work as a halfway measure for those of you that cannot keep your 2A tool on you.
Some schools are now legally allowing concealed carry, Good topic at school board meetings !
Two thoughts that will be my $.02 adjusted for inflation. 1) In the American experiment, the rightful place of authority rests in the citizenry. Elected officials are servants of the People, NOT rulers. Therefore, we are subject only to God, ourselves and our neighbors.
2) Up until recently, anyone who engaged in civil disobedience recognized that there may be consequences for such actions. Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, Bonhoeffer, Gandhi and King all understood and counted the cost of civil disobedience.
Only Special Snowflakes of whatever political stripe would think that there would be no ramifications to their disobedience to an unjust government.
One concealed weapon and twenty-five or thirty students to defend in an unexpected classroom crisis is a tough situation. A plan with a few options, training and drills should be mandatory, weapon present or not. A “correct” concealed weapon should be available on-person for safety and immediacy at all times. Forget any use of a purse, briefcase, coat pocket or drawer in the classroom.
I am a teacher in a private school. There are provisions in my contract that prevent me from concealed carry into the building; read any contracts you are offered thoroughly. This is ironic considering I live in a semi-rural area with many parents and students who hunt.
Private schools have some of the same restrictions as public schools in this regard. I understand your tension between wanting to teach in a private school yet knowing God could call you into public education. Many people here would offer advice but you must do what the Lord calls you to.
Why is there ANY “LAW” regarding an individual’s right to possess, utilize, hold, have and utilize a weapon of his/her choice? “ALL laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void.” Marbury vs. Madison, 5 US (2 Cranch) 137, 174, 176, (1803). A-L-S-O: “Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them.” Miranda vs. Arizona, 384 US 436 P. 491. A-L-S-O: “An Unconstitutional act is not law; it confers no rights; it imposes no duties; affords no protection; it creates no office; it is in legal contemplation, as inoperative as though it had never been passed.” Norton vs. Shelby County 118 US 425 p. 442. A-L-S-O: The general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and name of law, is in reality no law, but is wholly void, and ineffective for an purpose; since unconstitutionality dates from the time of its enactment, and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it. “No one is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it.” 16 Am Jur 2d, Sec 177 late 2d, Sec 256 So folks, as you can see we have a bunch of ignoramuses following ignorant “laws” that have no constitutional foundation and enforced by yet more traitorous ignoramuses. “My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge.” YOU NOW HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE….Copy and Paste everywhere. It is your job as part of that group known as “WE THE PEOPLE” to educate our fellow citizens. YOU HAVE A DUTY to ignore and violate any “law” that is repugnant to the Constitution. Any person that enforces an unconstitutional law (cop, judge, legislator) is guilty of TREASON to their oaths of office.
Letter Re: Armed Teachers from a Christian Perspective
Emphatically, don’t do it! As a retired public school teacher, I can tell you that they will fire you in a heartbeat when they find out you carry. You might never teach again, even in private school. Always have your cell phone on you.
Once, over 20 years ago, I knew a camp director who was fired for having a firearm on site. This was in south Texas with feral hogs, runaway emus (did you see the velociraptor in Jurassic Park?), illegal aliens, and more. She was responsible and experienced. And there was no written policy, but she was instantly terminated when those in charge found out.
There is today a huge misunderstanding of the Bill of Rights in our Constitution. The Preamble of that Bill clearly and unambiguously states that the Bill and all 12 of the articles in it (all of which have been passed by Congress now) are Declaratory and Restrictive. The Bill set out to Declare what rights God endowed us with (see the Declaration of Independence) and Restrictive against GOVERNMENT to prevent it from infringing upon those rights. Once this is understood the whole matter of rights can be seen in a manner consistent with the intentions of the founders.
The questions that must be asked, does your classroom door open in or out? If it opens into your classroom pound some door wedges under the door. Does it have a hydrolic door closer? If so is the arm in the classroom? If it is a rope, belt wrapped around the arms will prevent the door from being opened. If the door opens in a desk against the door couldn’t hurt. A 2 ½ pound or a 5-pound dry chemical fire extinguisher is a formable weapon. Empty the dry chemical into the shooters face then use the steel cylinder to hit them over the head or smash their face with it. Be creative with what you have in the classroom.
As a personal response to the author, as well as those in the same situation.
Get out! Go ply your skills in a safer environment.
The American Redoubt needs good teachers.
God bless,
Re: Teacher Carry,
If you should decide to work in a public school do you assume your students will all be mentally and emotionally well adjusted. Do you also assume none of them would dare steal from you. I have worked in public schools in Lost Angeles for 33 years and I have seen some students that are down right scary. A stolen weapon would be a nightmare. I had a professor in college that gave me a bit of good advice, “you never know what an adolescent will do” I have always remembered that. If you are committed to carrying on campus, find a school district that will allow it.
While reading the comments as whether to carry in a school or not I remembered a conversation with a cop friend of mine many years ago. We were talking about carrying concealed and I told him that I carried all the time which he thought was great, being a big second amendment guy himself. Then I added that I never carry in banks and he said with a stern voice “You should! You’re more likely to need it there than anywhere.” I was a bit surprised but I had to admit he was right. Now I’ll admit the consequences of being caught carrying in a school would probably be more severe than carrying in a bank but if I was trying to decide whether to carry in school or not I would ask myself this question, would I rather end my day in a jail or a morgue? If I did choose to carry at school I would do this. I would by one of those personal pistol gun safes that require a code to access your gun. Then I would take a lockable drawer out of my desk and take it home with me overnight. At home I would attach the personal gun safe to the inside bottom of the desk drawer with screws or bolts so that it all becomes one unit. The next day I would reinsert the drawer with my gun inside and of course lock the drawer. The chances of a student ever being able to have the time and tools to get to the gun would be virtually non existant but the chances of me getting to my gun in about thirty seconds would be great. My personal thought is this, no human walking the face of this earth has the right to tell me that I can’t defend myself!
30 seconds is to long, imho. Your firearm needs to be on your person. 30 seconds represents between 40 and 60 aimed shots….
I am a Christian attorney and I attended a Christian law school because I wanted to lean about the law from a Christian perspective (instead of the prevailing Marxist, “living Constitution” view). I believe the armed teacher question is relatively clear as a matter of Christian morals.
First, reliance on the Second Amendment is misplaced as a justification to carry a gun as a teacher if it is prohibited. The right to self-defense comes from God not the Second Amendment. The Second Amendment is merely our society’s recognition of a preexisting right. However, the Second Amendment is a powerful tool in restraining the government from interfering with the right to self-defense.
Although each of us has God given rights, we are ethically allowed to enter into contracts to limit the expression of those rights. For example, the right to free speech allows us to hold various political opinions. But, when a person enters into an employment contract the employer may tell the employee not to discuss politics with customers while working as a cashier. The limit on speech is a condition of employment that the employee accepts in exchange for money.
The government can interact with people as an enforcer of criminal law, a provider of services, or as an employer. The Second Amendment (and other constitutional provisions) are great at restraining the government in its role as an enforcer of criminal law and as a provider of services. It cannot enforce a criminal law in violation of the Second Amendment. And, it cannot condition the provision of services on a person relinquishing a constitutional right.
However, as an employer, the government can enter into voluntary contracts with employees that limit the employee’s rights while on the job. The government as an entity does not have arms and legs, it can only act by hiring employees to carry out its policy.
If a Christian (or anyone) enters into a voluntary employment contract not to carry a gun at work, there is no moral justification for breaching the contract. We can all agree that the policy is ignorant and makes schools less safe, but our opinions do not absolve us from the obligation to be honest with our employer.
Civil Disobedience Side Note: Civil Disobedience can be morally justified against a clear moral wrong by the government. It should be done in the open like Martin Luther King Jr. or Gandhi so that it will actually challenge the government. Secretly violating a law does not advance a cause.
*The opinion expressed above is not given, and should not be relied upon, as legal advice. It is only intended to be used for the discussion of Christian moral principles.
Excellent!
be aware . if you carry on school grounds and a student accuses you of menacing or threatening them with a gun you will be guilty until proven innocent and most likely fired. in the late 1970s our informal middle school rifle team was ended because a constantly troublemaking student heard that we were allowed to shoot pistols at rifle club one day and falsely accused our teacher/coach of threatening him with a handgun. fortunately this could be confirmed to not have happened. still our coach told us our next meeting was our last as he needed his job to provide for his family and only his care saved him as administration made it clear they would have loved making an example of him. that student dropped out and 2 to 3 years later he was working as a rent a cop at our high school . what a joke. yes, it was a public school. instead of educating your kids about gun safety most schools vilify guns. thank you coach p for using your own time to run our rifle club. i hope you see this.
It is better to live in a shack and home school than to live in a nice house and send your children off to the devil’s workshop, the publik skool.
S.C., Esq: Many good posts on the subject, but yours is the most concise and carries the most common sense, from a Christian as well as a secular perspective. If you don’t like the rules set forth by your employer (gov. or private): 1) don’t work there to begin with or 2) find another employer. Just my .02 cents.
Not trying to sound all preachy or holier than thou, Lord knows I am not, but if God calls you to some inner city hellhole of a school, then He has a purpose. Obeying the rules while doing what you can within the limits placed on you, is part of that plan.
Our days are numbered and we are immortal right up to that last day. I heartily recommend John Eldridge’s book “Walking with God”. It is not about self defense, it is about a daily, conversational, intimate relationship with our Lord.
Day of Wrath is the scary blueprint for a coordinated terrorist attack and although there’s a teacher that carries against the school policy, the thought that you’ll “out gun the bad guys” is unlikely. Recall the bad guy bank robbers in Southern California – the cops were out gunned until reinforcements arrived. So, when faced with these events, the best action and valor is to plan to act decisively, escape quickly; and when faced with overwhelming odds and loss of life, be ready to fight back.
Work in a large corporate site – 6 to 7 thousand people with several layers of controlled access (but no metal detectors) that make run and escape nearly impractical – so the risk of someone going “postal” seems high.
Many of my managers are equipped with a few not so obvious tools – an autographed baseball bat, a nice putter to practice your stroke, a can of bear spray that is discreetly mislabeled as air freshener, some ski poles and more than a few big letter openers – you get the gist for your options.
A plan and willingness to execute may be all you need to thwart one person, but if faced with overwhelming odds, run, hid and regroup and fight – most importantly, communicate the situation to the police and first responders quickly. I have placed a laminated card that in includes the room location and emergency phone numbers in all of our conference rooms, with a preprinted statement to be read (who, what, where, how many and what weapons) to the local 911 operators.
Confusion and chaos are what kills, getting order through proper preparedness is what stops chaos and let’s you live to see the next sunrise – what the hero in Day of Wrath concludes in the end. We are so unprepared for such an event….
I have worked in a school for 31 years now; carrying a weapon is illegal. But there are things that you can do. You can be aware of your surroundings and make a plan. Having a mental plan before hand is important. If you hear trouble, lock and/or jam your door, turn out the lights, if you have a second way out watch and evaluate that second way out and then move. I would recommend watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hFzOFIXIMI
As a last resort and there is no way out and no place to hide then improvise a weapon. Stand to the side of the doorway not right in the line of sight.
P.S. I would also like to add that when you sign your contract you are signing that you will abide by the schools policies and procedures. If you are unable to abide by those in good conscious then you should seek employment elsewhere where you can abide by the stated policies.
I see three questions asked here: 1) What is a Christian’s relation to government, especially in relation to Romans 13:1–7, 2) How to deal with conflicting laws and 3) Contract law. Now let’s look at answers.
1) The Bible barely mentions civil government.
2) What to do when laws conflict? I’m not a lawyer, but my understanding is that the higher law trumps lower laws. But with present lawless actions up to and including the Supreme Court, Congress and the President, you take your chances, no matter what you do.
3) Contract law. If you sign a contract, you’re morally obligated to fulfill your contract. If you find that you can’t in good conscience fulfill the contract, then don’t sign it. Of course, there may come situations which make it impossible to fulfill a contract, e.g. illness or accident, but deliberate disobedience is not covered by those situations.
In looking at previous answers, I notice some creative ways to provide for defense even without firearms, ways to fulfill the letter of the law or contract while still providing some protection. Each situation is different, so I look for some creative thinking on your part.
I believe that if you (as an educator) have to consider entering a classroom armed it is a sign of a system so badly damaged that it is probably beyond repair.
You need to start again, school by school.
But do not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Children, when well led, are not automatically bad.
Religion is NOT the answer, it is sometimes part of the problem (after all, the Klu Klux Kretins are often very religious)
Children need love, care, an understanding of boundries and a sense of fair play.
God bless you all.
I don’t think she was implying that she would need it to protect her against the students by her stating that she would need it to protect her and her students…
Most American school killings are by students or recent ex-students.
Ignoring the facts will not change the facts…
There are a few public schools, usually in rural areas, that have teachers, administrators & staff who are armed. One of my cousins is the superintendent of such a school district. Perhaps if the need to be armed in the classroom is so strong the letter writer could search for a position in such a school system.