Mr. Rawles,
I have a few counterpoints to Officer Tackleberry’s article touting the 9mm and especially the Glock 9mm family of pistols. My daily concealed carry pistol is a Kel-Tec PF9 9mm, so I don’t have any objections to 9mm as a caliber. But I also have a SIG P220 in .45 ACP, and favor it over any high-capacity 9mm full-size pistol. While the author’s anecdotal evidence shows any pistol can be lethal, a .45 ACP, with the right ammunition, is going to be more effective than a 9mm. With an 8 round magazine and one in the chamber, that’s three attackers whom I can give a double tap to the torso and one to the head. Yes, a Springfield XD would give me 20 rounds — but would those less-capable 9mm rounds do the job?
On another note, my wife prefers a steel-framed 1911 over any polymer-framed 9mm — the difference is weight, especially near the muzzle. The 1911 in .45 ACP is much more pleasant to shoot than a Glock 9mm, especially with +P ammo. The platform is just as important as the caliber in determining recoil / shootability. I understand the design features of the Glock make them easy to use — no argument there. – Jeremiah S.
JWR:
In his excellent article, Officer Tackleberry has outlined his case for the 9mm cartridge and the Glock pistol. I found in the article, however, only a comparison between 9mm hollow point ammo and .45 ball ammo. This might be a comparison of apples to oranges, so to speak, for if one compares hollow point ammo in both cartridges, then the comparison lies heavily in favor of the .45, which can expand to well over an inch in its hollow-point configuration, dwarfing the 9mm characteristics.
As to magazine capacity, the storied history of the 1911 with its seven (now eight) round magazine shows that the .45, even in ball form, performs magnificently in comparison to the 9mm. See reports from our troops in the “Sand Box.” I wonder why our special operations forces demand .45 pistols?
It is most definitely true that training with any handgun is the key to success. However, with the same training, a pistolero with a .45 will likely never need fifteen rounds to stop a gremlin.
The Glock has been so popular with law enforcement agencies, the story goes, because of its low cost and because even an idiot, by all reports, can shoot one. Nuff said.
So it appears to me that Officer Tackleberry offers a somewhat lopsided report – “Two Dogs” Lt.Col. USMCR (ret)
Sir:
A very interesting article with some good points and some fallacies. I note that ‘Officer Tackleberry’ likes to compare 9mm HP to the .45 NATO Ball ammo. Not exactly apples to apples. On any given shot, into any give area, the .45 hollow point (HP) will produce a more devastating wound that the 9mm, be it HP or Ball. It is a distraction to not admit that up front and let it go. It is not relevant to the good officer’s thesis.
The choice of the Glock is very personal. Personally, I don’t like the weapon. A Springfield Armory M1911 chambered in .45 ACP (shooting NATO Ball) is the reason I’m around to be writing this so I’ve seen no reason to reduce the impact of my rounds. Nothing against the Glocks – I think it becomes a “boxers or briefs” kind of argument – and I always encourage new shooters to try both and see what they like. I know several Glock shooters who have used heat shrink tubing to defeat the trigger safety of the Glock because it irritates their trigger finger after much shooting. I definitely recommend against this modification, but there it is. Shooting is very individualistic and these good folks were told the Glock is the only way to go so they won’t even try another platform although they aren’t happy with their choice.
As to the number of rounds, at under 10 feet distance (where the vast majority of shootings take place) if I need more than three rounds I’m dead anyway and reloading is not the issue. A ranking officer died in Iraq when he entered a room with four terrorists in it. He got off 7 shots of 9 mm from his 15 rd magazine, hit them all, but three of the terrorist were still alive when his men entered the room. Of course he was using ball ammo but the one shot stop is still a myth in most cases, even with hollow point ammo. It’s not something I want to play “you bet your life” on. My Colt Officer’s model [.45 ACP] is loaded with Hydra-Shoks. I have one in the tube and seven in the magazine and a spare magazine on the concealment holster. I can reload successfully if you are more than 10 to 15 feet away and if you are not, I shouldn’t need to reload. I practice a lot, as we all should, and I reload my practice ammo. I have a Kel-Tec P11 that I carry as a pocket pistol during the summer and as a backup when I can carry my Colt.
My preferred defense side arm is a revolver (in .45) but that is a little harder to conceal so is usually only for open carry or home defense. My family ranges in size from my 6 ft 2 in frame to my 4-ft 11-in wife. Our guns run from a .32 S&W long to a .380 Kel-Tec to my revolvers to the 9mm and Colt. Each member practices often with their gun of choice and reliably hits what the are aiming at. We all shoot the 9 mm for familiarity and proficiency even though I’m the only one who carries one full time. It is a backup for all of us.
A .32 with hollow points is not my weapon of choice, but it is what my wife will be fire in practice where a 9mm wouldn’t be. I have 12, 20, and .410 gauge shotguns because the 12 is too much for the ladies in the house. As I age, I’m beginning to think the 12 may be more than I want to shoot routinely as well. We may move to 20 gauge for comfort and that will help the ammo storage. I don’t reload shotgun rounds although I know some who do.
I guess my point is that, although I understand the advantages of a common round for the family or group, you should get firearms and stock ammo that the members will use. Get your long guns sized for the shooter (petite requires a “youth” stock length – put the butt plate in the bend of the elbow barrel pointing up; bend the forearm up alongside the stock, if the trigger finger is not at the trigger the stock is not the correct size) and then practice. A verity of ammo also allows for barter if needed but I think that if you try to force a caliber on a shooter that they are not comfortable with, they won’t practice and will fear to use the gun defeating the purpose of having it. I know it would be more efficient to stock nothing but 9 mm or .45 ACP but then I’d be the only armed member of my family. Now when we are out together at a restaurant we are a “mobile, gun rich environment” (quote thanks to John Connor of Guns magazine). For rifles we run from .22s to pistol cartridges to .30-30 to bigger. I prefer the lever guns for reliability, large magazine, and ease of use. They are faster for me than a bolt and more reliable than anything other than a single shot. I’ve never had a lever gun jam or miss feed. I can’t say that about bolts and semi-auto actions.
I get concerned when I read about the “everything in common” approaches. You need guns in your battery that will be used first and foremost. You also need guns that will get the job done. If you live in large bear county, a 9mm might scare off the bear or it might just annoy him. A .223 would not be my first choice if I was face to face with a large bear. On the other hand, a .50 BMG is too much gun for an urban dweller. You don’t want to punch a hole through your target and the next nine houses on the block. Each of us need to look at our situations realistically, minus our egos (mine is probably the biggest around), and decide what we must have, what we should have and what we’d like to have. The “must have” is a firearm that you will shoot and will have with you when you needed it. Everything else is a waste of time and money. If you can’t get to it when you need it, you do not have it! Just my not so humble opinion. – Captain Bart, USA Ret.
Jim:
To counter the “anti” mail that I’m sure you’ll receive about “Tackleberry’s” article, I’d like to say I think the guy is spot on. I love the Model 1911 and the .45 caliber, but, I think a Glock in 9mm makes much more sense for the majority of us in a survival situation. The lack of external safeties, the additional ammo capacity, and the better controllability of the 9mm make it a better choice for the vast majority of us.
Let’s face it, very few of us get out and train at least once a week with a handgun, more like once a month if we’re lucky. I think we can all agree that handgun shooting is a perishable skill. If you are not shooting a large caliber handgun, with external safeties, and doing the magazine changes (and malfunction) drills on a very regular basis, then I think you are probably not prepared to use it in any violent confrontation.
The reason I traded in the 1911 for a 9mm Glock was so I would have no external safeties to manipulate, have better controllability of my shots, and increased ammo capacity. So even if I don’t get as much training in as I want, I can still be combat effective. More so than with a 1911 in .45 caliber. That’s the bottom line here.
Not to open another can of worms, but I think this also relates to rifle caliber choice as well. A lot of folks insist on the 7.62mm for a rifle, for a lot of the same reasons you hear for .45 caliber for a handgun. I prefer the 5.56mm for my rifle because I can control it better, meaning more accurate shots, and carry more ammo to the gunfight. And I can also get by with less training, although rifle skills aren’t quite as perishable as pistol. (BTW, I am not advocating less training, I am just saying this is the reality of most of our situations.)
As an added bonus, my wife can also shoot a 9mm pistol, and 5.56mm rifle. So I always have a built-in back-up partner which doubles my combat effectiveness. – Diz
Jim:
I can’t agree about using trick ammunition to make up for bullet size. We are comparing apples and oranges here. The 9mm premium hollow point compares favorably with the .45ACP FMJ rounds, but it costs a lot more. Those big, cheap, FMJ practice rounds are the same ones I prefer for combat. A 9mm is a perfectly adequate weapon using premium ammo, but does it operate flawlessly? If you train with one load and stockpile another, you really don’t know for sure, do you? In my humble opinion, if you have chosen a premium or non-standard ammunition for combat use, that the only thing you should shoot for training. Otherwise, it’s little better than dry-fire practice. I don’t like surprises and would hate to find out too late that that those beefed up +P premium bullets jam more often, or crack my pistol frame.
I don’t want to argue about stopping power of relative cartridges. Both the 9mm and .45 have a lot of fans and I am not that uncomfortable with either of them. Compared to a rifle, all pistol rounds tend to look alike. Shot placement is definitely the most important factor. But in combat, you really have to have confidence in your weapon and for me the 9mm, with it’s lower recoil and smaller diameter, does not inspire confidence. I want my pistol to kick up a fuss and make some racket. If I could be sure of meticulously clean weapons, I would probably still choose the heavier bullet for reliability of function. If I might have to fight with a sandy or muddy weapon, there is no choice. I have seen too many nines stop shooting unexpectedly when they get dirty.
Military operators like the .45, not just because we are limited to FMJ rounds, but because they always behave well. I believe that momentum carries and transfers energy more reliably than velocity. There is a lot to be said for the simplicity of a large, jacketed chunk of lead sailing along just shy of the speed of sound. No tricks, no gimmicks, just lots of lead, already expanded to .45 caliber. Close combat is quick and you may only get one shot. I would rather than one shot weigh 230 grains rather than half of that. – JIR