Mr. Editor:
As a firearms instructor for more than 20 years (including concealed carry and personal protection), there are a few things to remember in an encounter:
- “I think I’m in shock and need to go to the hospital.” Often more true than you might think.
- “I want to talk to my attorney.”
- He who calls 911 first is the “victim”. Prior to the point where you will be using force against one or more opponents, you should call 911 and keep the line open. The call is recorded and can be used in your defense. If things happen too quickly to call first, call immediately after the incident and ask for help. This way you get to tell the story first.
- Be absolutely sure of the laws involving force (lethal or non-lethal) in your state. For instance, here in Ohio lethal force may not be used to protect property, but in Texas things are much different. Know your laws.
Good luck, – LVZ in Ohio
Good Morning Jim:
A proud Ten Cent Challenge member here with another two cents.
I can’t think of a much better way to lose everything one has worked and sacrificed for than to do what PJ did with his pepper spray. Hindsight being 20/20 and all my family has dealt with similar issues and thank God haven’t had to confront anyone yet.
There are a lot of self defense mistakes involved but the main one he made, and the reason he is facing prosecution from an un-sympathetic D.A., is moving from the relative safety of his home to go out and meet an imagined threat.
1. The ‘perps’ in this case were merely crossing his un-fenced property. So what. Let them go, they are not vandals, burglars, thieves, or home invaders trying to force entry into the house. For all he knows they were off duty cops investigating a case, border patrol looking for illegals, or the Taliban smuggling drugs and armed with full auto AK4’s. They might have been the local no good frat boys up to some minor nonsense but he didn’t know this before setting out to protect himself from an imagined threat.
PJ made a mountain out of a mole hill and now his father may very well wind up without a caretaker just as he feared, only now HE made it happen rather than a third party with his poorly thought out plan to meet a non-threat.
2. He knew the local D.A. is “anti-self defense” and yet he moved toward two trespassers with a can of mace.
3. PJ admits he doesn’t have money for an outdoor light, (which is what, like $20 on the high end?) but he has already spoken to an attorney and is now going to have to come up with money to mount his defense. Sounds like the first legal consult alone will be more than the cost of several outdoor lights. By the time this is over with, and he still has to think about the civil suit that will undoubtedly be coming, he probably could have paid for a six foot chain link fence around his property’s perimeter.
4. PJ now has a police record as well as a restraining order. So much for staying off the radar.
5. Retaliation. Now everyone at the college and in the town, knows he will be away from the house and in court dealing with his assault on their comrades. (public records) How does one protect their own when they are dealing with the legal system and facing jail time?
Take care, God Bless, and although we disagree with his methods, we hope PJ will come out of this okay and the rest of your readers can learn from his mistakes. – Cactus Jim
Dear Editor:
I’ve been thinking of submitting this post for a while now. After reading P.J.’s post this morning I decided the time is right.
First off, let me preface this by saying I am an 18 year veteran of a major metropolitan police department here in the northeast. I have worked my entire career in the fields of narcotics/firearms and gang enforcement. I make my living by convincing people to tell me what it is not in their best interest to tell me and by convincing people to allow me to search places that it is not in their best interest to let me search. I am now a supervisor and I am training a new generation of cops to do what I do.
Secondly, as we all know, hindsight is 20/20. I have been involved in hundreds of critical incidents through the years as a participant, observer or investigator. It is easy to sit back after the fact and tell someone what they should have done. This post is not meant to be critical of P.J.’s actions in any way. I hope to use his experience as a teaching tool to show how police work, how they respond and how you should act in their presence.
Thirdly, if you are building ANFO bombs in your garage, or are converting firearms to illegal configurations or are seeking to overthrow the US Government, then you deserve to be arrested, convicted and put in jail. The advice I will provide below is meant for the average, law abiding citizen who, for whatever reason, finds him or herself dealing with law enforcement.
As in any line of work, there are a variety of personality types in policing. Each individual officer also has his own motivations and goals. You don’t know if the officer you encounter is a lazy, ignorant toad who will attempt to do as little as possible or is a hard-charger looking to get assigned to an elite unit and who sees arresting you as a stepping stone in that process. But rest assured, no matter what, the officers motivation almost certainly does not involve doing what is right for you. He is going to do what is right for him. If that happens to help you, then good for you. If that happens to hurt you, then too bad. Believe me, he will not lose any sleep over it no matter how it turns out.
In most jurisdictions there are limits on when and how force, including deadly force, can be used in defense of yourself, others and property. Whether you agree with the laws in your jurisdiction or not, you should know what they are and be prepared to comply with them. [JWR Adds: And this should be a key data point in deciding where you want to live. my advice is to move to a state that has a Castle Doctrine las.] If you feel that you must act in a manner which may be outside the law, then you need to be aware that you may be arrested/indicted/tried and convicted. In my jurisdiction, a mace/pepper spray canister of the type described by PJ is illegal to possess. Note, it is not just illegal to use it, it is illegal to possess it. Period.
Also, in my jurisdiction the use of force (spraying someone with pepper spray is pretty obviously the use of force) is generally not justified to prevent or deter a trespasser.
There need to be other factors involved, but a simple act of trespassing does not warrant the use of force [in may jurisdictions].
When dealing with law enforcement, you must also remember that the officer is a person too. He may be an agent of the Government but he is not the Government itself. He is just a man like you are. He has a job that probably pays well, that provides good benefits and allows him to provide for his family. He does not want to lose this job. he does not want to be sued and lose his home. He does not want to make the wrong decision
and pick one side over another. You must remember that the two drunken college students who got sprayed with pepper spray are probably going to tell the officer a completely different story than the one PJ told them. So what are the officer’s choices when he is called to respond to PJ’s incident?
1) Ignore the whole incident. While this does happen, it’s not likely. A weapon was involved and at least one person was injured (bodily injury = being pepper sprayed).
2) Arrest the trespasser and tell him that it serves him right. Although this may be what the officer wants to do, he can’t. Remember, he doesn’t want to lose his job. This frat boy is probably already spouting off about lawyers and internal affairs complaints and who his father is. The officer knows that, unless he witnessed the trespass, he can’t arrest for it. (In my jurisdiction, unless I witness a minor crime such as trespass, I generally cannot make an arrest.)
3) Remember, the officer knows he must do something. He needs to find that weapon. He wants to recover it, place it into evidence and, if necessary, arrest the guy who used it. Let the court figure it out will be the officer’s decision. This way, the officer is protected, which is his real motivation here. He wants to wrap this up and get on with his tour so he can go home and watch television or play with his kids. He wants to find the easiest way out that covers his ass. Plus, if the cop is a little sharper than average, he is probably thinking :”Hmmmmm, is this guy just a little overzealous or is there some reason he is so hopped up over a little drunken trespassing.” So, the officer is going to talk to PJ and PJ, thinking he is doing the right thing is going to tell the officer exactly what happened. The officer is going to tell PJ that he sympathizes with him, that he would do the same thing if it was him in that situation, that at least he didn’t shoot the guy, even if that’s what the guy deserves. Oh and by the way, do you have any firearms?” The officer is going to ask PJ if he can come in. You know, so we can talk about this in private, so the whole neighborhood doesn’t hear. Now the officer is in your house, legally. He sees a box of ammo, he sees a well stocked pantry, he sees the books on your bookshelf……you see where this is going. That officer is going to go back to his precinct and talk and next time you call, next time you have a dispute with a trespasser, he and his will remember.
As a police officer I can give you the following advice:
1) Don’t let me in your house unless I have a warrant. If I have a warrant, don’t resist my entry.
2) Do not consent, in writing or verbally, to a search of your person, vehicle or residence. No matter what I promise, no matter what I threaten. If I had probable cause for a search, I’d be doing it. If I am asking for your consent, it’s because I am on a fishing expedition or because I don’t have probable cause yet.
3) Don’t try to explain. If the police are there, something has gone wrong or something bad has happened. If something has gone wrong or something bad has happened, then you probably need a lawyer.
4) There are hundreds of petty laws I can arrest you for, If you aren’t in handcuffs, don’t give me a reason to put them on you. Once I arrest you, my ability to search you and your property generally increases.
5) If you are having problems with trespassers or something similar, document it. Call the police and record the time and result. Keep calling. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Contact your elected representatives (local/municipal/county etc). Find others who are having the same problem and attend community meetings. Request an appointment with the police commander or tour chief responsible for your area. Address your concerns in a professional, calm manner.
6) Even if the police are wrong and you are being victimized by them, do not make matters worse by resisting/fighting etc etc.
7) Video and audio recording devices are cheap, small and getting cheaper and smaller all the time. They come in handy.
8) The police are not your friend. The police are doing a job. The police want to go home at night. The police will do what benefits the police, not what benefits you.
9) Know the law. Know your rights. Know your lawyer’s phone number. Just remember, one thing police really, really dislike is being lectured by someone claiming to know their rights, claiming to know the law. More often than not, someone who is screaming “I know my rights!” is wrong. – Tom M.
Dear Readers:
After reading what you wrote I wonder if you have expressed yourself well enough to the rest of us here. As a 22 year police officer and a fledgling prepper, I think I have a different take on this that may help you. I doubt that we are in the same state but laws may be close enough.
1. Going to trial on this is not about the truth it’s about the best presentation.
2. A good prosecutor is not going to ask why you went out of you house, he is going to paint the picture that you had some emotional need to confront/assault these 2 poor college lads.
3. When speaking to the officer being anything other than the scared victim is going to hurt your side.
4. Telling a cop to “Go get a warrant” is never a good idea. We will do our best to get one.
5. I hope you lawyer can convey how all you wanted to do was have the 2 leave and if true they didn’t just keep walking but were “advancing on you.” How things are worded have a huge impact.
6. Don’t skimp on a cheap lawyer.
7. Get an honest lawyer who will treat the officer as a “nice young rookie” who didn’t do anything wrong, but just didn’t interpret the facts at the time as the really were. This gives a judge or jury the idea that they are smarter or at least have ample time to come to a better decision. – P.S.
Sir:
The scenario posted by P.J. in “You Versus the Perps, their Lawyer, and the D.A.” is fraught with unanswered questions.
Was the property posted “No trespassing”?
Had PJ ever brought the video evidence of previous trespassing to the police to ask for their help? Had he ever approached the Fraternities or the college administration regarding the problem? (If you had, and one of the frat boys had been busted for trespassing, now it would be their PR problem, not yours.)
I highly recommend taking the NRA home defense course in your state so that any property owner is clear on rights and responsibilities before force is used.
I did, and it really opened my eyes. Take the course, get legal advice before you take action in a non-life-threatening situation. Be clear on what your rights and responsibilities are. – J.E.
Dear JWR,
It’s too bad P.J. had to experience this nightmare. If he was in Texas, this would be a no problem situation. This incident happened at night time and that makes it an automatic legal assumption that the perps are armed and dangerous; a legal shoot first and ask questions later situation. Also, with the castle doctrine here, you can’t be sued for your actions.
Steve H., Houston, Texas
James:
After reading P.J.’s article describing his encounters/situation (if the description of events is accurate), it seems that other avenues might have been explored prior to the use of the OC spray, and the approach used that night could possibly have been modified in order to give the real ‘victim’, P.J., some legal leverage. of course this is after the fact, and I was not there, so I do not know all of the dynamics. I some cases like this, the first one to call the law wins. A camera and lights may have benefited you more in solving this problem (if you can identify the perps, and photo them in the act, charges should be easier to pursue), just a thought. Then you could have directed the police to the exact guilty parties.
Every municipality has differing requirements for notifying people that they are trespassing on another person’s property. Some say you have to post “No Trespassing” signs so that they can be seen from all directions by any persons, prior to their actually crossing over to your property; some say you have tell (verbally or in writing) that they are not welcome on your property. Either way, posting a “No Trespassing” sign or few could have only strengthened P.J.’s position. Also, calling 911 before venturing outside, and staying on the line with the 911 call taker while the incident is unfolding could possibly also have helped (maybe).
As far as I remember, Fraternity and Sorority chapters that are on property controlled by colleges and universities have to answer to the entities for their conduct. Complaints to the school (in writing) do, sometimes, have an effect on their conduct. You can also lodge complaints with the Fraternity or Sorority national chapter offices [note: they are extremely sensitive to incidents that bring negative NEWS coverage to their organizations, so you could explore that avenue as well]. It is important that all of your official complaints be in writing, that way they are documented and, generally, taken more seriously. Also, if you have an officer or officers assigned to community issues in your area, they can be a resource (many departments do have these).
Lastly, unfortunately, in many (I think most now) states citizens, and in many cases police, are not allowed to defend property (baring arson, bombing or something similar that is possible a threat to someone’s life and safety) with deadly force or high levels of physical force. OC-spray is not considered a high level of physical force in law enforcement, but as you said, there are people and judges that will bring their own twisted morality into the equation.
American society, in general these days, has the expectation that a citizen has almost no right to defend their own property, or themselves from harm. Hopefully this will change, but do not hold your breath!
In the meantime cover yourself by consulting with a private attorney (contact your local public defender and/or legal aid society if finances are an issue). You also have the right, as a citizen, to contact and consult with your local District Attorney, Magistrate, etc. on matters such as these, before taking any action. Even will all of that, you still may have negative issues to deal with in any situation involving the use of force.
There are times when all of us would like resort to physical force to solve a problem, and in some cases that would be the most efficient solution, however with the modern legal structure and societal leanings, that puts the force user at risk of criminal and civil liability, even when they (the victim) is in the right – and even if they are law enforcement and justified in their actions.
Good luck with you situation, P.J.. Regards, – Sheep Dawg
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