Jim,
In response to Martin’s recent letter [“New-Found Respect for .223 as a Potential Man Stopper]: While the .223 (5.56mm NATO) round may work on the unsuspecting deer or thin-skinned varmint that is standing still, the situation changes when you are dealing with larger animals or highly aggressive and motivated individuals. In times like these, a .30 caliber round, i.e. the .308 (7.62×51 NATO) or Soviet 7.62x39mm is a more dependable man stopper. Why do you think there was a move to the larger 6.8mm round to replace or at least supplant the 5.56mm? Poor performance on the battlefield.
Most soldiers I talk to here [in Iraq] would much rather have a .30 caliber rifle, if given the choice. For hunting, I prefer any .33 caliber or larger for hunting game. I want my game anchored in place when I hit them, and that is more likely to happen with the larger caliber bullets.
The .223 is not a useless cartridge, and I think everybody should have one because it is so common, and there are some who [because of their stature] can better handle the rifles built around this cartridge. But as a choice for a main battle rifle or main hunting rifle, make mine a .30 caliber! Regards, – Stephen in Iraq
Jim
I will have to disagree with [Martin’s assertion that .233 is a potential man stopper] due to the fact that I have been in battle with the .223 against, the 7.62×39 and the 308 caliber. Except for a head shot, the .223 is not a man stopper with one round. It has always been taught to use multiple rounds to make sure. The US military teaches two rounds to the chest and one to the head when using this round. The 7.62×39 and the .308 is a much heavier caliber with more energy and stopping power. These two calibers are the most used calibers in the world of standard battle use, and if your looking for a CQB caliber I would go with 9mm or .45 ACP, or 12 gauge. In my opinion (and you need to trust me on this) the 223 is a nice small game caliber or short ranger sniper caliber but not a good caliber for a primary weapon. This is why the US military is moving toward the .308 in their new battle rifles. – CDR
James:
Martin’s success hunting Bambi with a scoped long-barreled (24-inch bull barrel) .223 bolt-action, shooting extra-heavy bullets that are handloaded for extreme velocity is hardly analogous to self-defense shooting with a semi-auto. He is “comparing apples and oranges.” Most of the AR-15 family guns being built these days are M4 clones with 16″ barrels.or even 14.5″ barrels (and a welded-on flash hider to make it legally 16+ inch length.) And, hey, let’s be realistic, the odds are that they are going to be loaded with standard 55 grain or 62 grain ball ammo. That is the real world. You cannot load a semi-auto with screaming velocity 68 grain bullets. Let’s face it: In the real world .223 just doesn’t cut the mustard as an effective combat round. The.308 Winchester rules. – Clyde G.
Jim
In response to the recent article about the .223 as a man stopper, I commend their fine shooting skills and found the article very interesting since I have also taken a deer with a .223.
I have reservation as to how some readers of this site may misunderstand the information provided. Most of the .223 caliber rifles we deal with on SurvivalBlog.com are of the AR type. Yes I agree that when the .223 is hand loaded with high performance bullets and fired from a long barreled bolt action rifle is has a substantially increased amount of energy over factory loads. When in the hands of a good marksman it could be used to take down deer and would be much more lethal against humans. But, the performance achieved by this writer should not be used to over estimate the capabilities of this cartridge. The data used in the article does not apply to a short barrel AR-type rifle using the FMJ military style ammo that it was designed for. In fact I doubt that this cartridge would perform reliably in most AR’s. Most any cartridge can be loaded to perform over their commercially designed level. A custom loaded .308 fired from a bolt action, 26-inch barrel rifle will perform at the level of a 300 Winchester Magnum, but I certainly would not fire that round it in my M1A. Just trying to keep things in perspective. Jack R
Hi Jim,
Great web site as always! SurvivalBlog a daily must-read and I recommend it all the time–usually to find out my friends that I’m recommending it to are already reading it!
I was just wondering about the best .223 rounds, after reading the letter “New-Found Respect for .223 as a Potential Man Stopper.” Perhaps you could go into some detail with your own thoughts on this subject? The old 55 grain milsurp was a great round out of a slow-twist long barreled M16 or AR-15, but perhaps it’s less effective out of the faster twist rifling shorter barreled “M4geries” popular today.
Also, as civilians in a post SHTF scenario, we won’t be restricted by [Hague] Convention regulations concerning hollow points and other special bullets. What are your thoughts on the best bullets to maximize the killing / stopping / wounding characteristics of our .223 rifles?
I recognize that eventually we may be scrounging every round of any type of milsurp we can get our hands on, but for the crucial first months of when the SHTF, it will pay to have mags loaded with the very most effective bullets/cartridges available today. There will be no long term survival if we don’t get past the opening stages of SHTF, which might be a chaotic bloodbath, especially during a bugout or a period of mass refugee movement. Thanks, – Matt Bracken
JWR Replies: I hold with the consensus that .308 Winchester/7.62mm NATO is preferable for nearly all defensive rifle shooting scenarios. But I can see the wisdom of having a few .223 (5.56mm NATO) rifles and carbines for specific circumstances, namely:
A.) As a transitional training rifle for youths.(Moving up from .22 rimfire to .308 Winchester is quite a leap for a 12 year old Just ask our #2 Son!)
B.) To equip disabled, elderly, and/or very small-statured (although it is notable that my petite wife does just fine with .308 semi-auto with a shortened barrel and stock.)
C.) As a long range patrol (LRP) or “long trek” on-foot G.O.O.D. defensive weapon. and,
D.) Just for the sake of having a rifle in your battery that can fire the ubiquitous military and police rifle cartridge in North America. (You never know when you might acquire a case of 5.56mm NATO!)
For those of you that do decide to add a .223 rifle to your battery, there is one crucial thing to keep in mind: Most of the .223 soft nose bullets available for handloading and nearly all of the commercially-loaded soft nose .223 Remington ammunition use semi-jacketed spire point bullets that are designed for instantaneous expansion on contact. This is because they were designed specifically for varmint hunting. This makes them sub-optimal for defensive use against two-legged predators at range. (Although if you live in town and are worried about accidentally penetrating several walls, then rapid expansion and disintegration is a good thing! The Hornady TAP bullet is a good design for this.) Fortunately, since .223 is gaining popularity for deer hunting in the eastern US, this should soon change. I anticipate that .223 “large game” (slow expansion) soft nose bullets and factory loaded ammunition will be available from most of the major ammunition makers within a couple of years.
Until slow expansion soft point ammunition is available, I recommend buying nearly all SS-109 (62 grain full metal jacket) ammunition. And even after slow expansion hollow points are available, keep in mind that they won’t have the penetration required to take down an opponent wearing body armor at long range. The ideal solution would be to have ballistically-matched 62 grain soft nose cartridges loaded alternating (every-other round in each magazine) with 62 grain SS-109 cartridges. But that will only be accurate and effective if the two cartridges have nearly identical trajectories. (Working up a ballistically-matching soft nose load is a fun challenge for those of you that handload.)