Economics & Investing For Preppers

48 Comments

1. Better investments for now temporarily but might go higher too all list prices based on 50 rds unless stated otherwise :
   OH 1 OH 2 NC 1

   9 mm ball $55 + $60 + $65 +

   45 acp ball $55 + $100 + $60 +

   223 55gr ball $1.25 EA Steel case wolf $1.50 EA Steel case $1.00 EA Steel case

   5.56 was higher at each show – Didnt see any brass but I’m sure there was some

   22 LR 500 rds $100 $125 $90

   I looked around at each of the shows for primmers and Oh 2 had them for $25./per 100 other shows didnt have any. Primmers in Indy show I was told were $35. /per 100

   No powder at NC show which was smaller than OH shows – 1 Oh show had powder for $250 jug not original container could have been 5 -8 lbs but wasnt able to get close since people were standing 3 deep to get reloading supplies.

   Prices may be different but I saw several vendors talking with each other about prices to charge on ammo and price tags were being replaced at several vendors as well

   The show in OH1 was near large city – OH2 smaller show about 50 mi larger city – NC large city near Mil base

2. Ammo might be getting scooped up but ranges are empty or very close. It’s been a balmy 4-8 degrees so we’ve been doing indoor ones.
   Most stores with ranges have laid off folks. The flip side of it is they still won’t allow steel cases because they sell back the brass. That’s stuck on stupid on their part. Let folks shoot their tula and make a few bucks rather than none. A magnet will sort the floor stuff out.
   Make sure y’all keep up your skill sets. Allot a portion of your holdings to proficiency.
   Surrounding yourself with boxes of ammo and lined walls of guns won’t save you. Hitting the target will.

   1. “Make sure y’all keep up your skill sets. Allot a portion of your holdings to proficiency.
      Surrounding yourself with boxes of ammo and lined walls of guns won’t save you. Hitting the target will.”

      This is why I picked up replicas in airsoft and bb in blowback (critical detail) of my lead sticks. Ammo is abundant for those, controls are the same and the only thing missing is recoil management- recoil is about the same as a 22LR. Trexarms did a video of a kid who was top notch airsoft shooter in Japan and had never shot a lead stick. His video proved that skills matter. Recoil management can be sorted out in 5-8 rounds. Kid was nearly toe to toe with the best lead stick shooter. If you have a stock of lead you can keep that recoil management up without tapping the stores. Practice practice practice!

      Hunting practice is a different ball of wax though IMO. Hard to practice distance shots without the real stuff.

      1. I’m running airsoft too. For rifle though I need rounds

   2. Matt, I have an iTarget Pro system on order. This is a laser practice system that appears similar to the Laser Marksmanship Training System (LMTS) used by the military in the “oughts”. Once it arrives and I’ve had the opportunity, I’m considering writing an article on it. It’s a bit pricey, but given the current prices of ammo, I think it has the potential to be a good investment. I’ll let y’all know.

      1. My sons got a laser system. I’d like to see an article on it. Looking forward to it

3. No Vaccine? No restaurant dining for you in Israel and the UK:

   https://www.ynetnews.com/article/ByUBpD8Zu More vaccine restrictions in Israel.

   Look at this rhetoric in the first paragraphs of this article in Ynet news:

   https://www.ynetnews.com/article/H1wtcsPW00

   https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14045626/brits-covid-vaccine-passport-pub-or-restaurant/ UK

   1. It’ll be ironic that people will need vaccine passports to participate in society and yet no voter ID! You really cannot make this stuff up, any surprise?

      1. Very ironic. But after one gets the “Passport”, the “Passport biocertificate”, embedded into one’s skin, may very well contain the ability to have all of your information in it, to have it downloaded onto it…Then they have your voter ID!

   2. Now look at this article coming out of Germany:

      https://www.naturalnews.com/2021-02-14-germany-ratifies-agenda-id2020-bill-gates-vaccination.html<

   3. Linked from WesternRifleShootersAssociation on gab:
      https://voxday.blogspot.com/2021/02/marked-for-death.html?m=1

      Synopsis:
      The author claims the mRNA injection (not ‘vaccine’!) meddling establishes a path for sibling influenza/common-cold strains to lethally injure the host.
      .
      .
      Instead of injections or pills, I maintain a healthy gut; some sources say upwards of ninety percent of the human immune system resides in a healthy gut biome.

      This looks like:
      * no fried foods
      * no seed oils such as sunflower, safflower, grape, and especially SOY
      * no SOY, no toefoo
      * no wheat, no corn, no oatmeal, no grains
      * no petroleum-based chemicals dumped by the millions of tons on factory-farms
      * no factory-farmed fish

      I focus my diet on:
      * plenty of healthy oils such as organic olive and coconut plus animal fats
      (Some sources claim unrefined organic coconut oil is a powerful anti-viral. (Not the refined stuff.))
      * plenty of organic pastured and wild meats.
      * at least twelve servings of organic vegetables daily
      * working in my garden and eating from my garden.
      .
      .
      Q — What does a vegantarianist zombie eat?
      A — “Gr…a-a-a…ins!”

      1. Good Morning LargeMarge,

         Just curious on your definition of fried foods. Does that include stir fry? Other than stir fried in light heat with olive oil, I don’t do any other type of frying. I do roast potatoes with a light coating of olive oil…

         Other than the oatmeal, I am following this diet that you are promoting. Fermented foods bother me. I’ve never eaten soy except a couple of times in my life.

         I totally agree with the premise of the video above of which synopsis reveals.

         The public is being primed through the vaccines to get very ill and die when the wild variety of Corona comes along…

         1. Do you know about “Mongolian Barbeque” ? Some of the most delicious food ever. I am told that he Mongolian army used to cook on their round, metal shields. Mongolian BBQ restaurants use a large (6 foot ?) diameter grill with flames under it. You put chopped vegetables, fruits, and meat on it and cook them. They use several sauces and maybe a little oil for cooking and flavoring. At home, I use a wok or a large frying pan and sauces with no oil to cook it. I start with bean sprouts, onions, and green peppers. Add whatever else I have handy to put in it. Homemade chili sauce (tomato paste with crushed red pepper), chicken, beef, or pork if desired, garlic, green onions, pineapples, shrimp, sweet and sour sauce, teryaki sauce, orange sauce, or whatever you like. Like I said, I use no oil. Just cook until the meat is done.
            On another subject, after the battle, remember to retrieve the enemy’s guns and ammo left on the ground to alleviate the shortage.

            1. I forgot to mention that I like to put horseradish sauce or horseradish in my Mongolian BBQ.

            2. I always start with bean sprouts, green peppers, onions and chopped CELERY. Very important.

            3. We have eaten at the Mongolian Barbeque restaurant in Coeur d’Alene, ID on numerous occasions. It is one of our favorite restaurants to go to when in town before Covid. We very seldomly eat out now.

4. Ammo frenzy, gun show yesterday in eastern SD, 200 rd bag of .22 lead rd nose for $50, I didn’t even stop to look at any of the other vendors ( two and three people deep around each ammo dealer, reloads and factory ). Local gun store banned me from buying any more .22 mag, said other people needed it too, but I still can buy other products there, just not .22 mag . Bought 2 ( limit of two ) boxes of 140 gn 6.5 creedmore for $35 and they had ( limit of two ) 9mm ball for $39 a box ( factory ), hollow point 9mm, .45 , .38 speical ( all hollow point ) was priced at $35 to $45 a box of 20 to 25. Local scheels has even less.

5. Off topic, but here’s a video about various masks and oxygen intake done by a firefighter: https://www.bitchute.com/video/3QueRxmZxODK/

6. Ammo frenzy, gun show yesterday in eastern SD, 200 rd bag of .22 lead rd nose for $50, I didn’t even stop to look at any of the other vendors ( two and three people deep around each ammo dealer, reloads and factory ). Local gun store banned me from buying any more .22 mag, said other people needed it too, but I still can buy other products there, just not .22 mag . Bought 2 ( limit of two ) boxes of 140 gn 6.5 creedmore for $35 and they had ( limit of two ) 9mm ball for $39 a box ( factory ), hollow point 9mm, .45 , .38 speical ( all hollow point ) was priced at $35 to $45 a box of 20 to 25. Local scheels have even less. Primers, I can’t even guess , but I’m hearing stories, box of 200 going for $25 to $50

7. Ammo, guns, & even some mag’s have been hot investments in recent months. I was blessed to be able to get some 9mm & 22 ammo, & have a connection for some 30-30. Purchased those thru armslist & mewe. Has anyone else here joined mewe? -the social network that does NOT track or sell ur personal data. I don’t share much personal info there. Many conservatives & gun enthusiasts have migrated to mewe from facebook. It’s common to find gun buy/sell groups in one’s geographic area, in mewe, & numerous prepping groups there. It’s nice to be able to ask prepping questions there.

   1. What is the connection between MeWe and the CCP? It’s a very popular social media site in China, therefore, it is not to be trusted.

8. Have also seen reports about the cost of food/groceries going up in the last year. To some extent, we preppers are insulated from higher groceries.

9. Off topic maybe: I see the ModernSurvivalist website is down or something. No Matt Bracken yesterday. I wonder …………….

   1. I saw that there wasn’t a Matt Bracken video, and I just confirmed that his website is down. The only thing that I saw that is still up are his youtube videos.

      1. Bracken’s site is still up (just checked) and he posted a couple things on gab within the past couple of hours. He said he was going to be in the road.

         1. Hopefully that’s all there is to it. His shows with Ferfal are pretty good.

            1. Matt said on his Gab account that he was traveling and internet reception was poor. He plans to be back soon.

10. Sounds like there is a strong opening in our capitalistic society for expansion of or new ammo companies to open. Supply and Demand! Who has the capital to invest and is willing to invest it? Locations within the Flyover country would be preferable, especially in states like Kansas, Oklahoma, and others who do not place onerous regulations on new business enterprises.

    If you have any influence on businesses, encourage them not to just move their factories to Flyover country, but their headquarters also. Bring the big money with you, although we will take all the jobs we can get.

11. There Was a gun show with 9MM!!! Here in the midwest there is none… and I mean none to be had!!!! It is kinda turned into a game when we go out shopping… who can find the ammo for the guns… 9mm and .308 are the ones that are the hardest to find on the store shelves…

12. MT gun show had ar 80% lowers for sale at $250 to $325. Uppers went for $600+. S&W ar’s went for $950. Most other complete guns went for $1100 plus. Ammo feeding frenzy on Friday AM. No .38 specials left, .22 brick of 500 went for $90 (one vendor only) others went for $100 or more. Vendors were selling out with prices of $1 to $1.50 per round on most ‘popular’ rounds like 9mm, .45, 5.56. People were totally overlooking good buys on other rifles in the rush for the AR world.

13. Back on 2011 the Montana Shooting Sports Association crafted a bill to encourage the creation of a powder and primer factory within the state in order to maintain a supply, should a future president decide to cut off the sale of powder to civilians. Currently most powder is either manufactured in foreign countries or by federal Government owned – Contractor operated (GOCO) facilities.

    I don’t think the Bill went anywhere.

    I wish someone would start a go-fund-me project that would build a privately owned smokeless powder plant somewhere. I assume the reason one doesn’t currently exist is because the start up costs are prohibitively expensive (not to mention the OSHA and environmental regulations).

    I mentioned this in a comment to a previous article; Bill Oreilly recently claimed that according to some un-named source that Biden was planning on issuing an executive order banning the importation of foreign made ammo. That would mean Tula, Wolf, Barnaul, PPU, Fiocchi, PMC, Norma, Aguila, and probably a dozen others I can’t think of right now. If that includes foreign made powders that would include a number of powders sold by Winchester, Federal, Vihtavouri, Hodgdon, IMR, etc. If you think things are bad now, just wait until that happens.

14. I recall that someone on this blog has told his followers to “buy it cheap and stack it deep”. When ammunition was being sold below the cost of production like it was years ago, I hope some of you heeded his advice. No panic here – thanks JWR!

    1. x2

15. I would expect oil to hit $100+ a barrel again, which will put gas at $4.00+ per gallon, like it was. I don’t see any slow down on inflation. Rather, I see it accelerating as we start moving past the knee in the graph. Unfortunately, thanks to Biden, we will not be in a position to capitalize on the high oil price, having thrown away our ability to acquire it domestically once again. 2022 is looking pretty dismal for democrats in the House. Throw in some idiotic attempt at a law like HR127 for gun control and it will be a political blood bath come 11/3/2022. Of course, by then, the damage will have been done.

    1. benjammin,

       Political bloodbath? The current powers are acting as if they will not have to fear future elections. But they are acting like they fear half the citizenry in some way.

       Makes a person wonder about it all.

       Best regards.

16. Very ironic. But after one gets the “Passport”, the “Passport, biocertificate, embedded into one’s skin may very well contain the ability to have all of your information in it, to have it downloaded onto it…Then they have your voter ID!
    You are so right Ms. Lily!

    And then they have complete control over you and every single thing you do, as well as surveillance inside your own home to record what you say.

    This is increasingly the path we have chosen to follow since no one seems to be able, or have the spine, to say NO…

    Increasingly its moving towards the split of the country into 2 factions, the red & the blue, of which scenario numerous books have been written. Astonishingly they all seem to be progressing towards fact instead of the fiction they are based upon.
    Consider Mt, Fl, Mo, ND, and others I can’t remember at this time, all trying to come up with laws short circuiting the ferals to interfere with their tyrannical edicts. To say nothing about Texas on the verge of seceding.
    True, it has to be approved by congress, but the way those critters are going about it, Texas may do it without their “approval”. Consider that congress acts regularly against the Constitution and by doing so the laws passed are null and void, (if only people would recognize this) so by their voting against Texas succession would in fact be invalid, since the lot of em won their seats through fraud. And then Texas is gonna do what Texas wants to do. And I may have to join them.

    I’m guessing this is merely posturing and a preliminary attempt by the states to set themselves up for the upcoming economic implosion coming in 3-2-1….
    I’m expecting fuel prices to run amok the closer we get to summer, with the doubling and tripling down on lockdowns and restrictions of our liberties, of which we actually have none left. Store shelves will be getting unused shelf space before the end of summer and we will be approaching a “World Made By Hand” by end of 2022. Separation of the country onto 2 factions won’t happen until the entire economy implodes, and it will then be “Game On” rule 308 applies…..

17. Just posting up a Brief comment about a gun show In Palmer AK this last weekend.

    The show was the first in around 6-9 months so many people (Read most of Anchorage, decided to come out) decided to attend. The amount of people there were crazy even with the temps in the single digits outside, To the point that when the show opened the line to get in was over 200 Yards and 2-3 people wide for the entire line. That line did drop in length around mid afternoon and from reports from people that went there later in the day, the Hall was at capacity all day. Seems like more than a few venders had good days and Prices were high and more than a few items seemed to be all over the map depending on the vender. AKA… those that have it for sale can charge what they want.

    I hit a few of the local fun stores around and added to the Steep and Deep for the personal stores for trade bait and “Hey look what I found” box. So not all the deals were at the gun show.

18. I have a second job with an Outdoors themed Sporting goods store. We have 102 stores nation- wide and have recently been acquired by an even large MEGA conglomerate. who now owns and controls two of the largest outdoors themed store chains in the Country.
    When I first started in October, there was PLENTY of ammo that came in on shipments on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. On Tuesday nights, after closing the employees who work in the “Hunting” department, (which is the department of the store where the Guns and ammo are kept.) would put out all of the calibers and brands of ammo that had come into the receiving department on Tuesday Late morning/early afternoon. Fast forward to Wednesday Morning at opening. . .the Same ammo trolls running into the store when the doors opened, there have been many shoving matches and fist fights over the goods. Repeat the Process Thursday and Friday Mornings.
    During these past months I have formed a couple of thoughts:
    1) Ammo shipments have become less and less for 9mm, .45, .40, .44 special, .38, .357, .22lr, .22 Mag, .454, 45LC, even .500 Magnum. Not only has the handgun ammo got rarer, but also more expensive at ALL box store retailer. Now, we are seeing only the very expensive/exotic/very high performance ammo available, .300wsm, .300 WinMag, 338 Lapua, and .50 BMG. These prices are climbing with each shipment.
    2) Here at my store, the folks who work in the Hunting department are only putting out about 30% of the actual shipments, WHY, you ask, because we the employees working at the store get “first Dibs” on all of the shipments. . .”Membership has its privileges”, I for one have been absolutely willing to take advantage of my membership. I pay the corporations price, plus 10%, plus sales tax, I am getting a great deal on ammo, despite the growing prices even for us. If I am going to be completely honest, we limit both our customers and our employees to JUST TWO boxes of ammo per day. PERIOD. It used to be two boxes of ammo caliber per purchaser. As the shipments shrunk, our policy was adjusted by the good folks at the home office. For the most part, the employees in hunting are making lists of what their fellow employees need and will hold them aside, this seems to garner them a lot of free lunches and I’ve seen more than one six pack of beer pass hands out in the parking lot, post shift.
    3) I have observed and commented to my fellow employees who work in the Hunting department, when we open up on Wed/Thurs/Fri: “Hey, I think that guy owns a small gun shop here in town”, I was told by my fellow employee that a LOT of our early morning customers are in fact small vendors.
    The Large Ammunition companies have almost cut them out of the equation, because Large Outdoor retailers are capable of make massive purchases, which they are financially capable of doing, this guarantees that the big box stores are going to get their shipments, when available. Interestingly enough, I have been to the small shops here in my little stretch of heaven, ALL are marking up their costs by at least 100%. Which kind of drives many customers away from the small Mom and Pop shops, back in thru our doors, we have only marked up by about 40% on average.
    So what do these observations mean? I certainly don’t have a crystal ball, but I will attempt to forecast what I think is going on.
    1) The ammunition manufacturers are operated by MEGA-corporations with many, many competing interests. They have stakes in and are affected by many other “Mega” industries:
    A. Mining: of the ores that make Lead, Brass, Copper.
    B. Petroleum: it takes a LOT to Mine and transport supplies.
    C. Logistics: “Amateurs talk tactics: Professionals talk Logistics” With growing costs of Petrol there will be direct increases of the cost of Mining & Logistics.
    D. All of these things are connected in our “Global Market Economy”.
    2) The ammunition companies are mostly ran by Global elites who more and more, look down their noses at American Citizens who exercise our God given rights, which is to Keep and bear arms. . .Therefore: if they cannot remove firearms from society, they CAN remove the ammunition, and they are!
    3) I have befriended several of our customers who discuss with me their concern about this OBVIOUS shortage of available, affordable ammunition. Several theories have been discussed:
    A. There is NO shortage. The money hungry strategists are biding their time and slowly, releasing the ammo into the market. WHY? Because this will cause a natural “shortage” in the markets, which raises prices over time, inflation, Oil costs, increasing price of logistics, all drive the natural prices up, but it also drives the need to acquire said named ammo, because “there is a shortage”, “the government wants to disarm us”, “there isn’t any ammo available”. All reasons for those who enjoy shooting often to want to acquire ammo more and more. All these things drive supply-demand/profit margins!!!
    B. Why is there a shortage? Is there a lack of ore in the ground? Doubt it. Is there a lack of desire to mine the Ore? Doubt It. Are the ammo company’s unable to pay their bills? Doubt it. I personally believe that this is all a Government driven manufacturing requirement, or, more likely a corporate profit margin strategy to make more money, in order to show a growth factor that is favorable to their investors and stock holders.
    C. I get the need for corporate growth, I also think that any company who can keep up with growth is going to not only survive but thrive in a hostile/turbulent environment.
    D. The current administration told us during the election year that they were coming for our guns!!!! So what happens? Seven Million new gun owners in the year of 2020!!!! Which means unprecedented corporate growth of the gun manufacturers?
    E. Some of my customers have discussed with me the fact that they go out to the known BLM shooting areas in our region and actually dig out the bullets that have gone into the back drops. On gentlemen in his early 60’s told me that in one afternoon he acquired over 300 pounds of raw lead and copper. He melts the lead down and casts new bullets for his muzzle-loading hobby shooting. He also cast many copper ingots and sold them at a facility in the large city that is in our region, for a very handsome profit. “Necessity is the Mother of invention” When I pressed him how difficult the task of digging out the bullets, he informed me that most of them don’t really go that far into the ground, and that he just takes his time and doesn’t kill himself over this seemingly laborious task. In my humble opinion this is very smart, the whole subject came up when I told him about my hobby of going to these areas on Sunday afternoons and “picking” the spent brass left behind. Folks this is good money if you are willing to bend over and pick it up.
    I wanted to share these things with all of you because I believe that there may be big money in recycling lead and brass and copper from these “places out there” where people have been shooting for years, and no one thought to go out there and clean it up. Hard work? YES. Worth it? It’s looking more and more like it is worth it. My big Idea was to erect these large “Netted” ranges where the netting at the back drop is Kevlar based and would stop just about all Small arms ammunition, Funnel it down into a chute and start re-melting it on site and recasting it onsite, re-selling it onsite. I know I’m a dreamer, but hey, I guess I subscribe to the Field of Dreams philosophy of: “If you build it they will come”.

    1. Thanks for the timely information. It would be interesting to know what and how much ammunition has been produced since November 3rd by manufacturer.

       Having worked in a large gun shop I know that incoming freight can be manipulated by the receiving entity and traded or sold in a strategic manner to maximize profits.

       If you visit the “big” stores on incoming freight days you can following many purchases to the smaller shops. (The smaller shops will send several employees incognito to pick up ammo to be marked up later).

       As long as folks are willing to pay the scalpers prices the unscrupulous practices will continue. It’s up to the consumer to wait this thing out. At least until the cartels start bringing in large shipments from Mexico 🙂

    2. To east sierra sage;
       Thanks for this inside info… very, very interesting. I think I know the store your are talking about.
       Sadly, I think people will eventually get used to the high prices, and that will become the new baseline. The prices won’t come down much even assuming demand ever falls off.
       The thing bothers me the most is the disappearance of powder and primers. In my area we have a Scheels, a Sportsman’s warehouse, and a Cabelas… no one has any powder left and the primers have been missing for even longer.

    3. My dad and I did some construction work at a gun range in MI last year. He knew the head guy there and asked if we could dig out some lead from the ranges we worked on for them. We ended up with probably 15 gallons of lead and brass. He melted the lead down and is casting some 9mm and 300 blackout bullets. We just made a 2×4 frame added some like 1/4″ screen. Shovel some dirt onto the screen, shake it out good and you got your lead! It is a bit of work but it was worth it I think.

19. Watch this BEFORE you Buy a Freeze Dryer! HARVESTRIGHT Freeze Dryer Review After 3 years
    (YouTube Video, 18:38)
    Retired at 40- Live.Life.Simple.
    Dec 20, 2020
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkB_5FyY81Q

    “Food costs increased by 58% between 2000 and 2020.”

    I have got to reconsider purchasing one of these…

    1. You might talk to your friendly neighbors about going in on one to share the cost.

20. East Sierra Sage, I respectfully disagree with your comment A. There are two new impacts on ammunition availability:

    1. There are 7 to 8 million new gun owners. If they each buy 100 rounds, we have 700,000,000 to 800,000,000 additional required cartridges. There are 7 to 8 Billion rounds sold each year, thus we have about a 10% increase in demand. What happens if they want more ammunition than just 100 rounds?

    2. With the rioting and permissive democratic governments allowing riots, property and even physical harm and murder, existing firearm owners have decided to buy up. Demand is far exceeding supply. Most ammunition manufacturers have OLD equipment and the cost of new equipment, buildings, environmental and OSHA laws constitute a considerable investment especially since it would take years to recoup the investment.

    Add in one more factor: Biden and the other democrats may try to curtail ammunition manufacturers. What manufacturer wants to bet on that? How many environmental and OSHA inspections can a manufacturer deal with until they decide to quit?

    Check out your popular ammunition manufacturers: Different names BUT many are owned by one corporation.

    Good luck finding reloading supplies and equipment at a reasonable price.

    This won’t end soon BUT it will end badly.

    JWR’s advice about stacking and deep is correct.

    Keep your powder dry and praise the Lord!

    1. Now when it comes to stack it deep? Sorry my paycheck goes to feeding my family. Glad you all are rich enough to do that. Whatever you are making yearly you are fortunate indeed. So with that line of reasoning you are one of the elites. Sorry that their are people that go to work and do not make your yearly. Please no more Israel Bashing here or no more what is the one and only true way to worship. Please keep it real on prepping. Lot of people turned off by the religion stuff. BTW hope your stocks and 401s are going great. Peace to all.

21. I live in Louisiana. The same story of ammo supply and prices is here also. I know a man that works at a major gunand ammo wholesaler . He said that as soon as a pallet of ammo is unloaded it never hits there shelves, it is packaged and sent out. So, the wholesaler is not holding it here.

22. I see where Fenix ammo will not sell to anyone who voted for Biden. That’s the pop up menu when you go to their website. Of course they have no ammo to sell period.

23. Francis,

    Great counter points to my Point A. I never considered the whole EPA and OSHA side of the equation. Uncle Sugar may not be so sweet. . .

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