- SurvivalBlog.com - https://survivalblog.com -

Sweet Spot For the 21st Century With Calibers Beating .308- Part 1, by Alpine Evader

This week I finished my five-year analysis on five intermediate range cartridges. I did an overview of semi-auto rifle logistics in six calibers. Scope of operations must support mounted vehicle extraction (Getting Out of Dodge/Bugout). Hostage recovery (Close Quarter Combat) and  a more typical three to four-person Fire Team foot patrol/maneuver element 6,000 feet above sea level must also be supported. We train for pain. But we are smart, hairless apes/intelligently designed, free-thinking primates, so we plan-do-check-act (or use the OODA Loop) wisely.

“Amateurs study tactics,” goes an old saying, “armchair generals study strategy, but professionals study logistics.”

The Sweet Spot That Wins Wars

If you add physiology and endurance athleticism to those fields, you get the fusion of high altitude light infantry– the sweet spot that wins wars.

Have you heard of this saying?

“From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.”

I would hope you’ve heard of this saying. It’s from Luke 12:48 (NIV). It’s why we integrated into a (mountain) community in our philosophy, rather than hunkering down in the virtual middle of nowhere. Our strategy is one of interlocking Mutual Assistance Group arrangements.

Tactics Are For Amateurs

Tactics are for amateurs, so the saying goes, and we aim to be considered professionals. So we attack the logistics problem to complete our pathway to resilience in support of the Constitution and our Christian principles; in SHTF, we must be able to respond to our MAG neighbors who are just over hill and dale.

Bottom Line Up Front

The bottom line up front (BLUF) is simple.

The least expensive and best upgrade to any existing AR-15 fire team for high altitude blended threats is to purchase standardized barrels and stock up on single-use, heavier bullets. Barrels would be in 12.5”, 16”, and 18–20” with 1 in 7.7″ twist. Bullets would be steel-cased Tula 75 grain.

The best upgrade would use a dedicated 6.8 SPC four-rifle fire team, with barrels of 12.5”, 16” and 18”. Dedicated upper receivers in 5.56mm are used for training. And the most flexible yet practical combination for high altitude blended threat environments is to have mixed 6.8 SPC and 5.56mm fire teams, particularly in ad hoc “roll your own” community defense integration.

If I were loading up a new survival team for SHTF operations from scratch, I would seriously consider outfitting my sample fire team of four people exclusively with 6.5 Grendel for four rifles and restrict their missions away from MOUT. The next comparable package for loading up a new survival team from scratch is to seriously consider adopting 6.5 Creedmoor, with full gear loadout supporting the AR-10 magazines and restrict their missions away from MOUT.

We recommend against adopting the beautiful, survival standard of .308/7.62x51mm caliber semi-automatic rifles. I’ll bet that got your attention! Read on.

How We Got Here: Winter Coming

I have a survival group consisting primarily of other combat veterans from multiple services ranging in age from mid-fifties down to late twenties and their families. We’ve had two members of our team die from lifestyle-related factors since we started. One died from heart disease and exertion and the other due to diabetes. This was when we were based at much lower altitudes. I take no great pleasure in communicating that someone will have to not only shoot and communicate but also move into position in order to maneuver. It’s not only about the bugout; it’s about the expected duration of collapse. We prepare for anything from six months to ten years of deprivation.

Assumptions in Retreat Location

Time and distance away from cities grant survivalists more decision-making advantages. This instruction is intended to assist those who already have or are considering a retreat located well away from urban centers of population. Choosing such a location means that should a failure of supply chain economics occur for whatever reason (financial collapse, pandemic, political coup, electro-magnetic pulse, zombie puppies and kittens, outer-space alien invasion, excessive bad manners, et cetera), a retreat to a well-provisioned safe zone will provide the dimensions of time and space for the “ants” who prepared against the “grasshoppers” who played during the seasons of plenty.

The metrics most survivalists value therefore dictate retreat locations along America’s Rocky Mountain range. The climate zones for this retreat locality are above 5500 feet but below timberline (11,000+ feet), which is an elevation where no vegetation can grow due to the thin air.

Exit Strategy

This exit strategy has been in place for over five years, with a sustainable, resilient homestead integrated into a village-sized mountain community. This survival group’s retreat is located somewhere within the Rocky Mountains south of Missoula, Montana and north of Albuquerque, New Mexico between the altitudes of 5500 feet to 9000 feet with subalpine climates down to high desert climates within reasonable hiking distance. Yearly temperatures at the homestead range over 110 degrees in variance, from -15F to 95F.

Roadway Access Issues

Some sort of roadway access is necessary when you consider how to bug out in all seasons, and this is where the philosophy of embedding yourself within an existing resilient community clashes with the philosophy of buying as much time, distance, and space as you can afford between you and your neighbors. We had locations we could go further off-grid, but four months out of the year the roadways are completely impassable after moderate storms. It wouldn’t work out as well for our children if we had to hike six miles through three feet of snow during an Apocalypse as it would to be able to reach where we needed to be with the moderate 4×4 or AWD SUV/CUV.

Available Groundwater

Available groundwater typically means you need to find rivers, lakes, and streams. Guess what? Others have figured out over the past three centuries where the best spots are, and they have colonized those with farms, towns, and other various and sundry human applications. With water comes population, because someone else found it before you did, right?

A Goldilocks Community of People

So our location has water, and, therefore, it has people. We chose to embed into a “Goldilocks” of a community, along a strategic high ground. It provides a valuable security over-watch for our adopted village community, should they require it. Because of this, we go to church with our neighbors. Their children play with our children, and we would be obliged to assist them if they were under attack by marauders. There’s a high saturation of preppers along with a high saturation of veterans, making this region difficult for the “grasshoppers” of the urban Free S— Army to try and overwhelm.

Not a Resort

Some mountain locations are merely resorts or getaways. We chose an area that had a wealth of agricultural operations as a point of resilience. Remote ranch sites exist everywhere, but those are considered by our intelligence assessment to be the outlying areas who will become “indicator species” for our security ecosystem.

If they start getting probed or raided, eventually we’re next. Our strategy is to aid and patrol within trusted elements of a community, which is already well saturated with a survival and resilience mindset.

Relevant Physiological and Environmental Factors

The environmental factors for this comparison include altitudes of 5500 feet to 9000 feet, taking foot patrols and escape and evasion (E&E) into consideration. E&E is a discipline we build into our survival community as a foundational element. E&E and remote hunting or patrols are assumed to begin above 8000 feet and go to timberline at 11,000 feet.

Outdoor operations must occur in tremendous temperature range during Rocky Mountain winter conditions as well as summer temperatures ranging into the mid-90s. We have to plan logistics and training for a hundred-degree swing in temperatures. That is no small feat, considering calorie, shelter, and defensive elements. This means that our survival caches are far more robust than they would be in a temperate climate. Perhaps I’ll write another article detailing our strategy on caches, if this one works out well.

I’ve looked at all logistical approaches to the rifle problem. This includes the startup cost, the ad hoc pickup game cost, and the total cost of strategic implementation. Strategic implementation includes the financial impact of integrating and supporting stashes of ammunition and magazines across cache locations along several main escape and evasion routes, along with potential interoperability with other groups. I’ve considered strategies of bulk military grade ammunition purchases along a DCA– Dollar Cost Averaging– timeline as well as component purchases and reloading time and effort. We’ve even looked at outsourcing our reloading for cost effectiveness. Bottom line: You can purchase all this ammunition and the components of the rifles we mention within this article with very little effort and upgrade your security fire teams.

Tomorrow, I’ll continue on with this article and write about physical factors and scenario conditions, as well as get into load-outs for alpine, sub-alpine, and high desert SHTF operations.

See Also:

SurvivalBlog Writing Contest

This has been part one of a four part entry for Round 73 of the SurvivalBlog non-fiction writing contest [4]. The nearly $11,000 worth of prizes for this round include:

First Prize:

  1. A $3000 gift certificate towards a Sol-Ark Solar Generator [5] from Veteran owned Portable Solar LLC. The only EMP Hardened Solar Generator System available to the public.
  2. A Gunsite Academy Three Day Course Certificate. This can be used for any one, two, or three day course [6] (a $1,095 value),
  3. A course certificate from onPoint Tactical for the prize winner’s choice of three-day civilian courses [7], excluding those restricted for military or government teams. Three day onPoint courses normally cost $795,
  4. DRD Tactical is providing a 5.56 NATO QD Billet upper [8]. These have hammer forged, chrome-lined barrels and a hard case, to go with your own AR lower. It will allow any standard AR-type rifle to have a quick change barrel. This can be assembled in less than one minute without the use of any tools. It also provides a compact carry capability in a hard case or in 3-day pack (an $1,100 value),
  5. An infrared sensor/imaging camouflage shelter from Snakebite Tactical in Eureka, Montana (A $350+ value),
  6. Two cases of Mountain House freeze-dried assorted entrees [9] in #10 cans, courtesy of Ready Made Resources (a $350 value),
  7. A $250 gift certificate good for any product [10] from Sunflower Ammo,
  8. Two cases of Meals, Ready to Eat (MREs), courtesy of CampingSurvival.com (a $180 value).

Second Prize:

  1. A Model 175 Series Solar Generator provided by Quantum Harvest LLC (a $439 value),
  2. A Glock form factor SIRT laser training pistol and a SIRT AR-15/M4 [11] Laser Training Bolt, courtesy of Next Level Training, which have a combined retail value of $589,
  3. A gift certificate for any two or three-day class from Max Velocity Tactical (a $600 value),
  4. A transferable certificate for a two-day Ultimate Bug Out Course from Florida Firearms Training (a $400 value),
  5. A Trekker IV™ Four-Person Emergency Kit from Emergency Essentials (a $250 value),
  6. A $200 gift certificate good towards any books published by PrepperPress.com,
  7. A pre-selected assortment of military surplus gear from CJL Enterprize (a $300 value),
  8. RepackBox is providing a $300 gift certificate to their site, and
  9. American Gunsmithing Institute (AGI) is providing a $300 certificate good towards any of their DVD training courses [12].

Third Prize:

  1. A Royal Berkey water filter, courtesy of [13] Directive 21 (a $275 value),
  2. A custom made Sage Grouse model utility/field knife from custom knife-maker Jon Kelly Designs, of Eureka, Montana,
  3. A large handmade clothes drying rack, a washboard, and a Homesteading for Beginners DVD, all courtesy of The Homestead Store, with a combined value of $206,
  4. Expanded sets of both washable feminine pads and liners [14], donated by Naturally Cozy (a $185 retail value),
  5. Two Super Survival Pack seed collections [15], a $150 value, courtesy of Seed for Security, LLC,
  6. Mayflower Trading is donating a $200 gift certificate for homesteading appliances,
  7. Two 1,000-foot spools of full mil-spec U.S.-made 750 paracord [16] (in-stock colors only) from www.TOUGHGRID.com (a $240 value), and

Round 73 ends on November 30th, so get busy writing and e-mail [17] us your entry. Remember that there is a 1,500-word minimum, and that articles on practical “how to” skills for survival have an advantage in the judging.

Comments Disabled (Open | Close)

Comments Disabled To "Sweet Spot For the 21st Century With Calibers Beating .308- Part 1, by Alpine Evader"

#1 Comment By Don Williams On October 3, 2017 @ 1:29 pm

1) Re logistics, how will your mountain community be fed if food imports from outside areas are cut off? It doesn’t sound as if the environment would support self-sufficient agriculture.
2) How will people earn a living if tourism ends? My superficial impression is that the Rocky Mountain region earned its living by mining in the 1860-1950 period then transitioned to ski tourism after WWII. Self sufficient agriculture and manufacturing never seemed to play much of a role in the local economy. While some early trappers moved through the area, it seems to have been largely shunned by the native Indians.
3) There is the example of Switzerland, of course. But Hitler’s Alpine Redoubt turned out to be a myth. Tactically, helicopters and fast rope let mountain units be surrounded and crushed. Strategically, mountain areas are always conquered by the lowlands (e.g, Edward I’s conquest of Wales ) because the lowlands support far larger populations.

#2 Comment By Robert Slaughter On October 3, 2017 @ 1:47 pm

Don W asked some very good questions. Posting to see answers.

#3 Comment By sideshow On October 4, 2017 @ 12:13 am

Don W asked some very good questions.”

dunno. if the “grasshoppers” or “indicator species” have functioning helicopters, why would they be interested in this mountain retreat heaven?

#4 Comment By Lazy JD On October 3, 2017 @ 4:27 pm

“Bullets would be steel-cased Tula 75 grain.”
“…component purchases and reloading time and effort. We’ve even looked at outsourcing our reloading for cost effectiveness.”

Won’t be any reloading happening with steel case ammo.

#5 Comment By SAM On October 3, 2017 @ 6:24 pm

It says “single-use, heavier bullets” but I would think all bullets are single use.
I’ve heard of elephant poachers in Africa digging out the used bullet and reloading it again but that is the only time.
In case you are wondering they used a old CZ bolt action in a large magnum caliber which they could not get ammo for. They took the used cartridge (I hope every one reading this knows it@s not a casing) the powder from two 7.62×39 rounds and used a rock to make the used bullet round (ish). The article did not say anything about primers but in the photos I could see that someone had put a box of matches down. So maybe they used a match head as a primer compound.
It sounds mad but it worked and the CZ had not blow up (yet).

#6 Comment By Mathew On October 3, 2017 @ 8:46 pm

some interesting info in here, but all seemed randomly thrown together. A bit more organization (and communication of that organization) would have made things more clear.

Remember.

Tell them what you are going to tell them, tell them, and then tell them what you told them

#7 Comment By Bwhntr62 On October 3, 2017 @ 11:13 pm

While it is true there are several cartridge combinations and loadings superior to both 7.62×51 ( .308 ) and 5.56×45 ( .223 ) rounds, it is also true that one is far more likely to find these rounds scavenging or at Post SHTF flea markets than say, 6.8 or 6.5 Grendel. Specialty rounds are cool and fun to play with. I reload and do that. But for post apocalyptic scenarios my group and I stock to commonly available calibers and ammo. It just makes it easier.

#8 Comment By Alpine Evader On October 4, 2017 @ 8:27 am

It’s exciting to have so many responses to the article. Thank you for your time and consideration and I will try my best to answer the questions.

Lazy JD & SAM: ‘Single-use’ in reference to 5.56mm bullets. I could strike that and not lose any sleep. The intent was to find a bullet that was both inexpensive and also somewhat standard, along with doing more sectional density (damage) downrange than the 55 grain or 62 grain green-tip. While 77 grain 5.56mm cartridges are match-grade, they are costly. The strength of the steel cased ammo isn’t in reloading – those components are stockpiled already – the strength is in being lightweight and cheap, and able to be stuck into a hole in the ground as detailed later in the series.

Mathew: BLUF – bottom line up front – was meant to summarize the entire series. This is likely where my editing skills are lacking, and I apologize for any confusion. The paragraphs were bold face in order to summarize the following content, and I think that I could do better in follow-on articles now that I have a better concept. Thank you for the encouragement. I’ll do better next time.

Don W / Robert Slaughter: The article is intended towards those who have already chosen mountains as their refuge, it’s not necessarily any sort of justification for that choice. There are three main reasons that .308 is a much better round for survival use but once you bring high elevation into the equation, we’ve done the math and done the painful learning curve to let us know that choice comes with a cost paid in pain. That said, I’ll do my best to answer your questions because I think you’ve laid them out well. I hope I do you justice with my replies. Please understand that I worked carefully to preserve OPSEC for my team, and in doing so I cannot reveal specifics.

1) “…how will your mountain community be fed if food imports from outside areas are cut off? It doesn’t sound as if the environment would support self-sufficient agriculture…”

— This is a good question. The short version is that the population that is here today is one half of the measured Neolithic population 1000 years ago… so if stone-age peoples could flourish in numbers twice as numerous, I think that we might have a pretty good chance at it as well. Alpine and sub-alpine areas have short growing seasons but not nonexistent. Cattle and sheep are grazed in this area and moved down to 6000-7000 foot elevations annually. The grass grows amazingly fast in high alpine meadows and plenty of grazing is to be had. When you think of SHTF, you really ought to be thinking security, 24/7/365, in a 360 degree arc around every asset you have. This means if you’re grazing high country, you’re concerned about threats in high country as well. The community we picked happens to grow food in excess of what it uses and exports the fresh produce to nearby ski communities. Within a fifty mile arc, we have access to a corn mill and a flour mill. Crops are grown at the 5000 foot – 7000 foot elevation with no difficulties.

2) “…How will people earn a living if tourism ends?”

— I think this is more of a holistic question; after all, how would people earn a living in a city when SHTF? The same 50 mile arc has industry which includes mining, energy sector, tourism, ranching, farming, and small scale manufacturing. Ignoring the strengths of our team in the provision of security consulting and intelligence analysis (my background is in part 2) or in information security (we think local networks will bootstrap) we plan for six month to ten years of hardship. There are plenty of tasks to accomplish when there is commerce, but to have commerce you must have security. There are also industries we have licensing and specialization in which I might write other articles about, but the OPSEC provisions still restrict my discussion about what skills our team brings. Some hints might involve the latecomers to the ‘Patriots’ novel, who didn’t need roads… The beauty of being a combat veteran means that not only do you have a current skill set, you’ve got an entirely different set of skills that is directly applicable to hardships and security deficits of SHTF.

3) There is the example of Switzerland, of course. But Hitler’s Alpine Redoubt turned out to be a myth. Tactically, helicopters and fast rope let mountain units be surrounded and crushed. Strategically, mountain areas are always conquered by the lowlands (e.g, Edward I’s conquest of Wales ) because the lowlands support far larger populations.
— We might have to agree to disagree, at least until the rest of the series is published. While Switzerland is the model I see the closest comparison to our environment, I would hazard that Afghanistan has given our military a he** of a hard run… and those folks aren’t First-World educated. I’d say that your analysis of lowlands vs. highlands may fall short given the history of Afghanistan against everyone from Alexander the Great to Genghis Khan to the British Empire to the USSR. Giving the advantage to the stateside Rocky Mountains, along with a high percentage of native military veterans (35% or more) I think that Wales isn’t quite the same battlefield once you have to hump up and down above 7000 feet, particularly if you’re used to lowlands and dropped in by helicopter without time to assimilate. Intelligence Preparation of the Battlefield (IPB) as the guest posts from Sam Culper detail, would probably hold the key to security. That, and as ‘sideshow’ mentioned, they’d have to want to get up there in the first place.

Thank you again for your questions and comments. I will try to keep future articles more along the style you have enjoyed.

Alpine Evader

#9 Comment By Alpine Evader On October 4, 2017 @ 8:43 am

Thank you, Bwhntr62 for that comment. I had already replied to the others, but I think you bring up a great point.

Bwhntr62: …one is far more likely to find these rounds scavenging or at post-SHTF flea markets [than the recommendations]…

You and I agree wholeheartedly. In being honest about the shortcomings of the 5.56mm, we must agree that when a car windshield can deflect the bullet (55 grain, most commonly found at that flea market) it’s use is somewhat limited. I think you have a valid point with the .308 which is why I hope you find good data-driven conclusions within the rest of these articles. We speak of compatibility with other teams in the following articles and I think you’ll be satisfied with that logic or I’ll know the reasons you’re not in short order!

To sum up – the BLUF is that by standardizing barrels and adopting a heavier, inexpensive 5.56mm 75 grain TULA loadout, an alpine / sub-alpine centric team can enjoy 5.56mm compatibility. The better loadout is 6.8 simply by providing more smash. As I mentioned, the 6.8 team members are also tasked with obtaining and maintaining 5.56mm barrels or uppers for practice so a retro conversion.

Some considerations for you: during a bugout from a metro area to the retreat, wouldn’t it be more logical to have as heavy a cartridge as your AR-15 could handle? The probability of action comes into play here – if you must shoot, you want to shoot through barriers and 115 grains fired from a .30 Remington case (or 120 grains of 6.5 Grendel fired from a 7.62×39 case). With the extra smash at closer ranges, things end up DRT – dead right there – regardless of barrel length, something that 62 grain greentips out of 14.5” 5.56mm M4 rifles were not producing as well as expected, particularly in Mogadishu just about 24 years ago today.

I think you’ll be interested in the justifications in the weeks that follow, but I will say that it makes a larger difference as you go up in altitude, so elevation is a primary consideration most folks don’t factor in.

Thanks again for your consideration and I look forward to hearing whether your concerns are addressed in the upcoming articles.

Alpine Evader

#10 Comment By Alpine Evader On October 4, 2017 @ 2:27 pm

Lazy JD – I now recall why I used the term ‘single use’ with the Tula ammunition. It was to acknowledge the single usage of the cartridge, as in, it was not reloadable. I apologize for the confusion, this could have been more clearly articulated.

Thanks to all for helping me become a better writer. There’s not a lot of opportunity for me to both preserve my team’s OPSEC and get proofreaders who are better writers than I am. I’m very appreciative of this forum and the opportunity it provides.

#11 Comment By RSR On October 7, 2017 @ 7:46 pm

The 75 gr .223 Tula/Wolf ammo runs 4-6 moa from a bench in quality rifles/barrels. There are several milspec brass loadings that are 1/2 or less of that… With that MOA spread, you’re looking at exceeding an 18″ chest spread at 300-450 before accounting for shooter error.
The 75gr bi metal jacket hps are also terrible at expansion relative to other options including lighter copper jacketed fmj 5.56 ammo…
The tul is also the new polymer cases, which are more prone to rusting, and AFAIK there is not neck or primer sealant on the cartridges as well which makes them less than ideal for reliable function after long term storage…
Also worth noting that lighter bullets have less drop at range, more wind affects but less drop. From a bench at known ranges, heavier bullets with more drop but less affected by wind is preferable. But in dynamic combat shooting, the reverse is true… There are several more folks more knowledgeable than me who have written about max point blank range (MPBR) and why maximizing that MPBR is terribly important in dynamic combat shooting.
Bottom line, the tula ammo is fine for bang bang bang time at range or training, but recommending it for SHTF is shortsighted to say the least…

#12 Comment By RSR On October 7, 2017 @ 8:10 pm

Brass 5.56 is the cheapest price per round at about 30 cents per round. HP match brass (most in 70gr + range) runs ~50 cents per round.

6.8 spc brass rounds run ~60 cents for fmj and ~65 cents for HP match. (+100% cost for former, 200 rounds of 5.56 for same cost 100 rounds of 6.8, and +30% cost for latter, 130 rounds of 5.56 for same cost as 100 rounds of 6.8).

6.5 grendel in steel should not be considered for all the reasons mentioned w/ tula .223 steel in previous post. Reliability should always be paramount w/ ammo.

Brass 6.5 grendel costs right about the same as 6.5 creedmoor and bullet weight is usually less than 6 grains (2.4%, 129gr creed. vs 123gr gren.) apart on common loadings. Both require similar length barrels for powder burn and brass/powder weight is minimal as well… The only reason for grendel is if you need a cartridge that will function in a .223 magwell. Otherwise creedmoor is superior, hands down.
Further if you love 6.5 grendel or 300 blk and just have a need for hunting or short range work, milspec 7.62×39 is much more affordable and equally as minute of man capable and accurate inside 300-400 yards…
Insofar as 6.5 creedmoor is concerned, almost all common factory loadings are hunting or match grade and typically begin at ~90 cents per round. Vs 5.56 hp match, it’s 80% more expensive (180 rounds of 5.56/.223 match vs 100 rounds of 6.5 creedmoor) and vs 6.8 spc hp match, it’s 38% more expensive (so 138 rounds of 6.8 spc hp match vs 100 rounds of 6.5 creedmoor).

For CQB fighting, 5.56 or 7.62×39 is the clear budget winner. For longer range shots, there is a definite benefit to a larger caliber in a semi-auto rifle, and if not .308, then 6.5 creedmoor is king from a budget, if not also overall system and ammo weight to capability ratio, perspective…

#13 Comment By RSR On October 7, 2017 @ 8:17 pm

Also .308 vs 6.5 creedmoor, heavier bullets are better at shooting through cover. While the weight is more and accuracy of .308 is less than 6.5 creedmoor, that 150 gr .308 will be better at penetrating or destroying more forms of cover than the 130 gr 6.5 creedmoor.
Lastly at short ranges, 6.5 creedmoor and 7.62×39 will both be equally effective at penetrating cover…
The assumption of all of this is that in a firefight your enemies will take cover and you’ll have to shoot through cover to hit them…

#14 Comment By RSR On October 7, 2017 @ 9:34 pm

*FMJ is also much more effective than game bullets in punching through trees, crumbling rock and cinderblock, etc.

#15 Comment By RSR On October 7, 2017 @ 9:48 pm

And probably should have included .308 in the cost analysis as well. For FMJ brass case, it is ~50 cents per round and:
-67% more expensive than 5.56 (~167 rounds of 5.56 FMJ to 100 rounds of .308 FMJ)
-6.8 SPC is 20% more expensive than .308 FMJ (~120 rounds of .308 FMJ to 100 rounds of 6.8 SPC)

Vs 6.5 Creedmoor:
-6.5 Creedmoor w/ HP is 80% more expensive than .308 FMJ (180 Rounds of .308 FMJ to 100 rounds of 6.5 Creedmoor HP)
-6.5 Creedmoor w/ HP is 20% more expensive than .308 HP (@ ~75 cents per round) — So 120 rounds of .308 HP can be had for 100 rounds of 6.5 Creedmoor HP)

The point about all these costs is that one should really ask:
1) Do I in fact need whatever (perhaps incremental) one-shot performance gains that a hunting bullet or match grade ammunition provides given expected uses (if yes, then cost no object, but if no and then:)
2) Is the price/value of the superior hunting bullet/match ammo in fact worth whatever difference the cost reflects (i.e., is 100 rounds of 6.8 SPC in fact more capable than 200 rounds of 5.56 — or is either/or sufficient if primary purpose is suppression, etc).

When you look at 6.5 Creedmoor vs .308, 6.5 Creedmoor is clearly superior for a hunting or sniping role. Depending on what role you anticipate a DMR shooter fulfilling (suppressible fire to fix an enemy/deny cover while other forces maneuver or less expenditure of ammo taking fewer shots of opportunity [much like a sniper] when the situation allows…

#16 Comment By Been There while Doing That On October 14, 2017 @ 3:45 pm

“Alpine Evader” mentions “professionals study logistics” and then demonstrates that he has done no such thing himself, glibly ignoring the overwhelming issue of food and putting forth a bunch of nonsense about boutique cartridges for small arms,

You don’t need 6.8-this or 6.5-that…

You need some competent thinking about affordable long-term storage foods and a few cases of cheap vanilla 5.56mm or 7.62mm ammunition.

#17 Comment By Alpine Evader On November 3, 2017 @ 4:48 am

Been There while Doing That: “Alpine Evader” mentions “professionals study logistics” and then demonstrates that he has done no such thing himself, glibly ignoring the overwhelming issue of food and putting forth a bunch of nonsense about boutique cartridges for small arms,

You don’t need 6.8-this or 6.5-that… You need some competent thinking about affordable long-term storage foods and a few cases of cheap vanilla 5.56mm or 7.62mm ammunition.

– Um… //speechless// I don’t know what you want me to say. Can we agree to disagree? So the objection to the article is that it wasn’t about food. You’re actually complaining that an article written with the topic of rifle ammunition is not about food.

– The funny thing is that I actually did cover the topic of food in my comments in at least one of the four part series but I think I’ll write another series on high altitude lifestyle that will cover it further. Apparently I’m not glib enough on the topic. By the way have you been above 6000 feet to accomplish all that you are claiming ‘we need’?!?

RSR: The point about all these costs is that one should really ask:
1) Do I in fact need whatever (perhaps incremental) one-shot performance gains that a hunting bullet or match grade ammunition provides given expected uses (if yes, then cost no object, but if no and then:)
2) Is the price/value of the superior hunting bullet/match ammo in fact worth whatever difference the cost reflects (i.e., is 100 rounds of 6.8 SPC in fact more capable than 200 rounds of 5.56 — or is either/or sufficient if primary purpose is suppression, etc).

– The answer is yes. If you’re trying to lose 20 pounds of ugly fat from your patrol kit. Have you been above 7000 feet sustained? Probably not – the majority of our North American population lives well below 5500 feet as per the statistics shown at city-data.com. What we’re trying to do is carry the loadout of an AR-15 with the reduced weight that implies while getting the best bang for the buck across the board with an entire logistics chain built upon escape and evasion. Because we have succeeded in this we share our findings with the survivalblog.com users.

– It’s all well and good to disagree but I think you’re missing the key point here which is that everything we do is at altitude. I didn’t hear any of your conversation mentioning this critical point that I was very clear about. Do you have any experience in combat in the mountains? Do you have any experience above 6000 feet backpacking?